topic Re: is this feedback extortion? in Selling

is this feedback extortion?

corduroy9 — Wed, 02 Apr 2014 23:10:43 GMT

I sold an item on the 26th march, the buyer emailed me the next day ( never before the auction end) asking if they could 'pick up the item?', I emailed them back stating it was postage only as the listing stated.
They have just received the item in the mail and emailed me immediately stating the following :

First, I have received the item. Thank you for mailing it so promptly.

But second, there is a fault with the item that was not mentioned: the arm keeps coming off the central hub. Even without my cat playing with it, if I just leave it running the arm frequently comes off and has to be reattached.

I have already ordered replacement arms from the US, although including shipping, this cost me an additional USD $29.99.

I wanted to give you an opportunity to offer redress before leaving negative feedback.

Is this feedback extortion? Are they annoyed that I wouldn't let them pick the item up? Are they also asking me to refund them an extra $29.99 on top of not retuning the item for a full refund?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the item,
I tested it intensely before posting it well packaged/protected! I just googled the product and it turns out that it's a common issue that the arm can fall off at times.

The buyer only has a feedback score of 4,
I'm just a bit confused as to why they are not using the resolution centre if the issue is real!

Re: is this feedback extortion?

2106greencat — Wed, 02 Apr 2014 23:15:55 GMT

No it is not FB extortion as the buyer is not requesting anything they are not entitled to, but I will say it used to annoy me whenever a buyer said those 'rather not leave you negative' words as I see that as a veiled threat.

This particular buyer however is very nice and has been asking for advice on these boards also.

Maybe you could both sort something out together as both seem to be tryng to do the right thing, and yes this situation is real, and you have admitted this is a fault the manufacturer is aware of.

Hope you can work it out amicably.

Re: is this feedback extortion?

medalsbadgespatches — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 01:20:08 GMT

Hi, no its not. They can ask.

However if you tested it and it was fine when you sent it then any problems should have been reported to you on arrival and a refund sought pending return of the item.

If they chose not to do so then that is their decision. If they chose to repair and not return that is their decision.

If they choose not to use ebay/paypal resolution centre then that is their decision.

Any negative feedback can be responded to in a clear concise manner explaining their incorrect actions.

Re: is this feedback extortion?

robinsonmarineparts — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 02:55:38 GMT

"There is absolutely nothing wrong with the item," ok then you'll have no trouble offering a full refund.

Now i read where the buyer says "I do not want to return the purchase."

I would suggest that the two of you work together to solve the issue.

Re: is this feedback extortion?

lancelotlink666 — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 04:11:44 GMT

I am the buyer to which monster_truck is referring. As I said in the thread on this topic that I started independently in the buyer's forum, I really am a near-total newbie here (this is only my 5th ebay purchase and I have never sold anything).

There seems to be some question as to whether I am telling the truth about the fault with the device.

I have made a short video using my webcam demonstrating the fault. However, I can't figure out how to send it to monster_truck individually or post it to a forum. I thought the "Insert a video" icon would allow me to do this, but now I come to it, it appears that's only good for YouTube.

Obviously still photos prove nothing there: I really need video.

Can anyone help?

Re: is this feedback extortion?

medalsbadgespatches — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 05:22:34 GMT

Hi, can I ask why you have not requested/returned the item for a refund?

Ebay has a Resolution centre for transactions like this and if it was faulty a return would be appropriate.

Re: is this feedback extortion?

lancelotlink666 — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 06:08:18 GMT

I see you have visitied the thread I started over on the buyer's forum. I think that explains my actions.

I admit that I've had very little experience on this site, and don't generally know how things work around here. That's why I came to these forums.

According to ebay's policies, I am supposed to begin by contacting the seller and seeing if we can't work things out between ourselves before taking any further action. See:

http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/buy/item-not-received.html#talk

So that's what I'm now doing.

Re: is this feedback extortion?

harley_babes_hoard — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 07:06:04 GMT

I think most are wondering why you would not want to return an item if it is 'not as described' or damaged. Also if you decide to fix the item yourself I believe you are going to void any help paypal would normally give in this instance. You said you didn't want to return it so what do you expect the seller to do for you? pay the cost of repair?

I don't think a negative is deserved in this instance either

Re: is this feedback extortion?

medalsbadgespatches — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 07:06:39 GMT

hi, Yes I read that you recieved a "faulty" item "not as described" but want to keep it anyway.

I read you have already ordered a replacement part for the faulty item.

I read where you discussed negative feedback for the seller.

Your simplest solution would have been to return the item for a full refund as per ebay polices.

Re: is this feedback extortion?

digital*ghost — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 07:36:42 GMT

@lancelotlink666 wrote:
I see you have visitied the thread I started over on the buyer's forum. I think that explains my actions.

I admit that I've had very little experience on this site, and don't generally know how things work around here. That's why I came to these forums.

According to ebay's policies, I am supposed to begin by contacting the seller and seeing if we can't work things out between ourselves before taking any further action. See:

http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/buy/item-not-received.html#talk

So that's what I'm now doing.

I think you will find that opening a dispute is generally only going to be good for getting a refund (after returning the item to the seller at your expense) once it's clear the seller is not prepared to work with you in a situation like this.

Personally, and I know it's too late now, but I think the fact that both parties to this transaction asked for advice means neither knew exactly how to handle it, but I see no indication as yet that the seller is not prepared to work with you and offer a fair resolution, just that they were unsure of your intentions (which, as much as it can be affronting, it's not really a personal accusation, as it's relatively common when a problem arises between two people who have virtually no interaction, none of it face to face, and likely experienced or at least heard of some horror stories in the past).

The negotiations can, of course, still be facilitated via the dispute process, and if I were to offer any advice to both buyer and seller, it would be the age old do unto others bit (that is, as a buyer, don't do anything you wouldn't want a buyer to do to you, and vice versa - as a seller, don't do anything you wouldn't want a seller to do to you; when you think about a transaction in those terms, allow how you would like to be treated if the shoe was on the other foot to help decide your actions, rather than try to decide what the other person's actions should be - within reason, of course).

If you stiill wish for the video to be viewed, you will have to upload it to a hosting service like YouTube first.

Re: is this feedback extortion?

ajarnjenny — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 08:56:17 GMT

WhenI was in the US, in October my freind bought one of these for her two cats. Same thing happened. We taped the arm on with duct tape and it worked fine.

The female cat would watch it , close up, for ages just touching it and then the male cate who had been watching it from afar, would jump in and turn the whole thing over and roll himself up in it and we would have to repair it again.

Cats loved it!

Re: is this feedback extortion?

corduroy9 — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 09:35:27 GMT

I have offered the buyer a full refund 3 times now, but they keep stating they want to keep the item.

I have spoken to ebay twice today about the situation and they have said on both occasions the buyer really needs to go through the resolution centre if they believe the item is not as described.

Re: is this feedback extortion?

2106greencat — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 09:59:35 GMT

I think as a seller you have done all that can possibly expected, in light of that I would hope the buyer reads this and decides you are not deserving of a negative or even neutral feedback - they seemed quite genuine and just came here looking for advice.

Given your response I think your perfect 100% feedback score will remain.

Re: is this feedback extortion?

lancelotlink666 — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 10:34:09 GMT

I'm sorry, but I just don't see it that way. If there is fault with the product not made clear on the listing, negative feedback is far from uncalled for -- irrespective of whether the buyer decides it's worth keeping anyway.

Bear in mind that shipping replacement arms from the US (including postage) is costing more than the entire original purchase - again including postage.

As I have said to monster_truck in a private message, I would be happy with a partial refund to reflect the fact that the good really were not as described. If monster_truck is expressly unwilling to provide this, then we advance to the next step in the dispute resolution process.

Re: is this feedback extortion?

thecatspjs — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 10:46:03 GMT

Legally it is the sellers call to refund or replace or repair.

It is entirely up to the seller if they chose to offer a partial refund and let you retain the goods.

Re: is this feedback extortion?

2106greencat — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 10:51:02 GMT

The seller does not know an item is faulty until they are advised of it, and of course it won't be in the description.

Bear in mind that shipping replacement arms from the US (including postage) is costing more than the entire original purchase - again including postage

Bear in mind if you had done the right thing first and contacted the seller this expense would not have been incurred by you so you have no grounds on which to request reimbursement for this.

Had you gone through dispute resolution paypal would have asked you to return to seller at your expense by trackable means, and the seller has stated he would have refunded no questions asked.

He has done everything required of him by eBay and paypal but you have refused his offers and will punish this seller by leavng a red dot.

Not good form, sorry, but you did not deal with this in the correct manner at all and the seller should not be punished for your lack of knowledge on eBay.

Re: is this feedback extortion?

digital*ghost — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:00:06 GMT

@lancelotlink666 wrote:

As I have said to monster_truck in a private message, I would be happy with a partial refund to reflect the fact that the good really were not as described. If monster_truck is expressly unwilling to provide this, then we advance to the next step in the dispute resolution process.

One thing you need to keep in mind here is that even if you are entitled to a refund for faulty goods, you are not entitled to a partial refund because you want to keep it. One can be requested and granted, but it does not have to be provided just because that's your most preferred option. Requesting a partial refund instead of returning for a full refund as instructed by the seller, on the threat of negative feedback is feedback extortion.

Re: is this feedback extortion?

lancelotlink666 — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:01:02 GMT

The seller does not know an item is faulty until they are advised of it, and of course it won't be in the description.

Maybe I think it's the seller's responsibility to know what they are selling before listing it.

Re: is this feedback extortion?

thecatspjs — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:23:01 GMT

Regardless,to dig in and insist on keeping the item and insist on partial refund is not an option that has been offered, nor a remedy that the dispute resolution process will provide.

As with real life, from time to time goods are sold on eBay that may have faults - and the remedy under law is a sellers discretion to repair, replace or refund.

I urge you to consider your own feedback record as well prior to leaving negative for any seller as your remarks appear on your public record, and with 4 feedback only it ain't going to do your feedback history any favours either.

In the situation at hand, the seller may leave a follow up comment to clarify that you would not accept a refund and insisted on a partial refund and it kinda would likely make you unpopular.

Re: is this feedback extortion?

lancelotlink666 — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:35:57 GMT

To dial it back a notch, irrespective of what I am legally entitled to, there's also the question of coming to a resolution that's not completely counter productive for both of us.

The item was sold for $9.50, with $13.40 postage.

Let's say you give me a full refund: that's $22.90. And I send you the cat toy back: it's worth at most $9.50, and that's ignoring the fact that it has a fault not mentioned in the original auction, which presumably means it's worth considerably less. But let's ignore that for the moment and just say that you've paid me $22.90 for the return of something that, at most, is worth $9.50. You're now $13.40 worse off.

In reality, if we assume you're an honest seller and will list the problem in any subsequent sail, I think you'll have difficulty selling it at all. In which case you will actually be the full $22.90 worse off, since you've paid $22.90 for something that's worthless to you.

I, for my part, have to wear the cost of sending it to you at my own expense. Let's assume my postage is the same as yours, and I too am now out of pocket $13.40. Although I do receive from you $22.90, which I suppose means I'm $9.50 better off on a cash basis. But the replacement parts I ordered from the US are now essentially useless to me.

It's clear that if I return it to you for a full refund, we've both lost out.

On the other hand, suppose you give me a 50% refund. In that case you've lost $11.45. This means that you're $1.95 better off than you would have been if I'd returned it to you for a full refund.

Once again, saying that you're $1.95 better off is ignoring the fact that if you list the fault in any future auction, if you're an honest seller and include the fault, you may not sell it at all. If the toy remains unsold, you're $11.45 better off if you just give me a 50% refund.

I'm hoping we can de-escalate this a bit and resolve this rationally. I think if you "do the math" (as our American friends are so fond of saying), you'll see that you are actually better off if you just give me a partial refund.

Regardless of whether ebay or the law requires you to or not.