topic Re: Difficult buyer in Selling

Difficult buyer

nevillesdaughter — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 08:58:38 GMT

Just a quick one for the "Special List". Had a buyer over the weekend who bought and paid for a brand name item and for Express postage, THEN starts peppering me with emails questioning its authenticity (8 emails from her). I responded that as far as I knew the item was authentic but that if she found it not to be, I would immediately refund.

Over the following torrent of emails - during which time she reminded me that if I was wrong "People could die!' - she sent me links regarding fake skiwear and tried to get me to provide a personal guarantee. Given that she couldn't even spell "Gore-Tex", I probably would have been safe!

However, I once again explained that although I believed it to be genuine, the only guarantee I could give was that I would refund if she had it proved to be a fake. I also offered repeatedly to cancel the transaction if she was so concerned. Finally, late at night she insisted that she wanted to go ahead with the transaction, so I wrapped the parcel, addressed it, allocated an Express tracking number and put it in the posting pille for the next day.

Upon checking the computer first thing in the morning I find another email asking me to cancel the transaction because her friend said it looks like a fake.

I took a deep breath, sent her a request for mutual cancellation and when she agreed, refunded her money and very promptly added her to my own special list.

I now find she has left me feedback - Positive - saying something along the lines that it all worked out okay in the end.

Not happy - it makes it sound like I tried to pull a swifty but she sorted me out! Tomorrow I'll be making a phone call to see if I can have it removed, but I thought fellow sellers might like to learn from my experience first.

Happy selling.....

Marina.

Re: Difficult buyer

lyndal1838 — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 09:18:22 GMT

Nice idea Marina but the buyer's ID is now hidden in your feedback so no other sellers can add her to their Special Lists.

Re: Difficult buyer

green-gifts-mkd — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 09:54:26 GMT

All we can see is:

If you wrote a reply such as: buyer's ID, so glad we were able to assist you (or whatever), we'd know the name. Hopefully, the buyer has not 'dinged' your stars. In the rare instances where I have cancel a transaction, I ask the buyer not to leave any feedback for it. I have learnt the hard way when I my DSRs have been 'dinged' shockingly because no item was sent, so buyers couldn't judge, resulting in 3's or lower for the transactions.

Re: Difficult buyer

*crikey*mate* — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:21:51 GMT

Marina, if you ask for the comment to be removed, it will have the comment "feedback removed by eBay" and IMO, that will look worse, as it looks like you are trying to cover something up.

In a few transactions, that comment will be off your front page and lost in the sea of all your other green dots.

Personally, I wouldn't even draw attention to it by leaving follow up and making it stand out. (How many pages of positive feedback to people scroll back through and analyse?

But if you want to follow up, just summarize factually, your view "buyer changed mind so I refunded....."

remember that they too can respond again, so don't leave yourself open for a contradictory follow up feedback iykwim,in case the buyer writes something like item looked fake.

Re: Difficult buyer

green-gifts-mkd — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:23:50 GMT

Good point--probably best to leave it be...

Re: Difficult buyer

phorum_junkie* — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 15:41:15 GMT

I responded that as far as I knew the item was authentic

Not good enough and could get you into serious trouble! Unless you can prove by way of a receipt from an authorised re-seller or an independant expert that it is genuine you should not list it, selling it or indeed owning it if it is not genuine can have serious consequences

Re: Difficult buyer

nevillesdaughter — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 21:25:27 GMT

I have been selling this gear for nearly 10 years and some of these fakes are so good that even licensed dealers of the items are unable/unwilling to say either way, especially with second hand gear that may be more than 10 years old.

I have taken items to ski shops for authentication (or otherwise) in the past - in cases where I couldn't tell - and have not been able to have the issue resolved. Obvious fakes I can detect myself, it's with the good ones that the problem lies. To date, I have never had an item returned as a fake and nor have I ever been accused of peddling them.

I have a friend who is a manufacturer in China, and he said that often the items are coming out of the same factory, made by the same people, usually out of excess fabrics etc from an original order, and then in a charming expression "sold out of the back of the rickshaw". Still illegal, but very difficult to pick as a fake.

I buy a lot of used items in bulk lots and am happy to write off the odd obvious fake as a cost of doing business (I usually cut them up for the clips and buckles etc to do repairs), but using your logic I should have every single item authenticated, or only buy when original receipts are included. After all, how can anyone be sure that any used item is genuine?

I bought a pair of jeans in Singapore a while back and after trying them on and saying I'd take them, the shop lady asked me what brand I wanted. I said "these ones" and she shook her head in frustration and indicated the myriad of rolls of labels - Levi, Wrangler, Calvin Klein etc. She just added them to the jeans you wanted on the spot! And this was in a shop in a large shopping centre, not a market or a back street shop.

The instances that I refer to are few and far between. I rely on my own experience, natural caution and a willingness to refund immediately if proven wrong. In this particular case, I had no doubts about the item (and still don't) but without original receipts I can't be sure. Requiring original receipts on used goods would make selling as I do impossible - I never have them!

The realities of dealing in used items make such a requirement impractical. I am registered business and carry appropriate insurances (costs me $3000 pa) - a money back guarantee is all I can really do.

Marina.

Re: Difficult buyer

thecatspjs — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 21:59:09 GMT

@nevillesdaughter wrote:

The realities of dealing in used items make such a requirement impractical. I am registered business and carry appropriate insurances (costs me $3000 pa) - a money back guarantee is all I can really do.

Marina.

Whilst the requirement may be impractical, it is nonetheless the law, and it does not make good business sense to ever list a single item where there is doubt enough that you would refund if questioned by a consumer.

Insurance will not cover you for the hefty fines that apply for trading in fake brand items.

Re: Difficult buyer

sisterireland — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 02:06:42 GMT

I too have had an uncomfortable experience with a buyer who left unfair & UNTRUE feedback after I did all the right & reasonable things, also offering a full refund if dissatisfied or disappointed.

It has impacted on my rating which is very annoying given that I'm probably the most honest person on this planet!

It seems very unfair that buyers can simply write what they wish(..probably after having a bad day!)

Can you advise on how one might go about getting some justice as I feel totally at a loss?

Is there a facility or forum that can reverse this?

Re: Difficult buyer

nevillesdaughter — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 04:18:25 GMT

I have just made a celebratory cup of tea after spending rather a long time on the phone with eBay because this lady also left 1 out of 5 stars (for item as described) for a transaction that didn't go ahead, and a garment that she has never seen or touched.

The first person I spoke to sympathised but said they could do nothing because a) she left a green dot and didn't really say anything that contravened feedback policy, and b) there was no facility to remove DSR ratings.

I asked to speak to a supervisor and 20 minutes later both the feedback (including the dot) and the low DSR rating were gone.

Perseverance, a calm manner, and firmly stating your position can work wonders. Having all your ducks lined up also helps. In my case I only had 4 other feedbacks left since I had run my last report and every one of them left a comment to the effect that the item was as described so it wasn't too hard to see where the bad one came from! The supervisor had the damage repaired in about 5 minutes of the call ending.

In a similar vein, I noticed on that pop-up page that appears when you go to your dashboard relating to the new rating system, that I allegedly had 4 cases of cancelled transactions for "Item out of stock or sold to someone else". I sell second-hand goods and oddments - I don't have "stock" as such and only sell on eBay. The main reason I cancel transactions is that some people don't read the measurements I always provide, find something doesn't fit ("I'm always a size 12 at K-Mart!"), then want their money back and I oblige.

I phoned eBay who said I must have put the "run out of stock" excuse in when I cancelled the transaction. I said "Bull manure - I don't have stock as such, please check that." Another 20 minutes on the phone listening to music and she came back and said "You APPEAR to be correct - I checked your cancellations and they were all for size issues or the customer changed their mind. We'll see about fixing that up and will confirm that by email later this evening".

I also took the opportunity to ask this lady about the new DSR system that will no longer be anonymous - she very quickly started babbling about how that was not at all set in stone, and was still under discussion as to how it would "impact on the buying/selling experience".

Sorry to be so long-winded about all of this. I've felt on the verge of tears several times today, and I'm sure my blood pressure medication has worked its socks off, but feel that I had a couple of (small) wins. EBay seem to be in such a state of flux at present......

Cheers,

Marina.

Re: Difficult buyer

green-gifts-mkd — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 05:28:46 GMT

So happy for you--had a feeling that buyer might have dinged your stars--it's happened to me over a cancellation. I am very cautious about cancellations now.

Re: Difficult buyer

davewil1964 — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 06:48:41 GMT

Way to go, Marina. ALWAYS stand up for yourself.

And I bet your BPM will now be able to have the long weekend in holiday mode.

Re: Difficult buyer

nevillesdaughter — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 07:58:36 GMT

With the utmost respect Cats, I have spent a reasonable part of the afternoon on the phone with my business lawyer (whom I pay).

His professional advice (in writing) is that onus is not on the seller (particularly of second-hand goods) to provide the provenance of every item he or she sells. It is up to the buyer, if they suspect a fake, to provide the proof. Obviously, inherent in this is that I believe the item to be genuine. And if a customer does come up with some sort of certification, their first point of call should be (also according to CHOICE) to the seller for a refund ( which I would happily provide). And even if I refused, the likliehood of anyone finding a lawyer prepared to take it on are miniscule (I'm referring here to second-hand ski wear). For a start, I could then "pass the lawsuit on" to whomever I bought it from) in good faith, ad infinitum. In the words of my lawyer - "The bloody economy would collapse while the lawsuits were sorted out!" Additionally, if I give someone their money back, the story is over.

I re-iterate, that I only list items I truly believe to be genuine, and have NEVER, in 10 years, been accused of doing otherwise. I refund everyone for ANY reason that they are unhappy eg, "The colour looked different on my monitor, I'm always a size 12 at Target, My son broke his leg and won't be going on the school trip, Her grandma bought her a skisuit already" etc, etc, etc.

But I am not infallible, and there are some very good fakes around. If in doubt, I don't buy the item in the first place. However the companies looking to prosecute are not looking to sue middle aged women flogging ONE ski jacket that turns out not to be genuine. They are chasing people at markets, or people selling entire ranges of new items purporting to be the real thing. Some of the goods I sell are by companies no longer in business - where would I stand if someone questioned the legitimacy of such an item (skiwear that is often only used for a few days a year can last forever!)

I'm not looking for a bunfight here, but consumer law is nowhere as cut and dried as you seem to be implying - particularly in respect of second-hand goods. As my guy said, the onus is not on the seller to provide the provenance (although you can ask for it), but for the buyer to prove otherwise.

Marina.

Re: Difficult buyer

*crikey*mate* — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 08:21:32 GMT

but I have to ask...

the music they made you listen to............ was it any good?

Re: Difficult buyer

*crikey*mate* — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 08:26:02 GMT

Marina, sometimes, I really do want to kiss the ground that you walk on, ya know?

I've bought stuff from you in the past and it was absolutely brilliant and far exceeded my expectations. For someone to imply otherwise or to question your integrity is just mean.

Re: Difficult buyer

nevillesdaughter — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 08:34:50 GMT

Middle of the road classical chamber with static - helped keep me fired up and not crying. The supervisor I spoke to was actually very good - tracked through my emails with the lady in question and made me feel like he was on my side.

It certainly pays to be persitent, but having said that, I lost almost an entire day that I wanted to spend doing new listings. And I spent it in a reasonable state of agitation, listening to not-well broadcast music on speakerphone in case I missed the precise moment when somebody got back to me. There is only a limited number of times that you can hear "Your call is important to us" without going stark raving mad and resorting to strong drink (which I am now doing).

I might suggest to eBay that some good old heavy metal might keep someone like me more amused - and maybe a little mellow with nostalgia.......

Marina.

Re: Difficult buyer

*crikey*mate* — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 08:43:18 GMT

I spent a fair bit of time on the phone with them today myself - and I can't remember the on hold music LOLOLOL so at least you were calm enough to actually realize there was some hahahaha

Re: Difficult buyer

nevillesdaughter — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 08:54:27 GMT

Thank you - am currently in the process of giving the medication a gentle nudge with a cheeky little sauvignon blanc.

Marina

Re: Difficult buyer

nevillesdaughter — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 08:59:33 GMT

You really are too kind Cranky. I'm actually a very timid soul by nature, and dislike confrontation intensly, but I dislike even more being thought of as dishonest. But if you keep being nice, kind and understanding, I shall surely find myself sobbing into my wine.

I'm always much more likely to stand up for myself when people are mean or dismissive!

Happy eBaying,

Marina.

Re: Difficult buyer

thecatspjs — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:29:51 GMT

@nevillesdaughter wrote:
With the utmost respect Cats, I have spent a reasonable part of the afternoon on the phone with my business lawyer (whom I pay).

His professional advice (in writing) is that onus is not on the seller (particularly of second-hand goods) to provide the provenance of every item he or she sells. It is up to the buyer, if they suspect a fake, to provide the proof. Obviously, inherent in this is that I believe the item to be genuine. And if a customer does come up with some sort of certification, their first point of call should be (also according to CHOICE) to the seller for a refund ( which I would happily provide). And even if I refused, the likliehood of anyone finding a lawyer prepared to take it on are miniscule (I'm referring here to second-hand ski wear). For a start, I could then "pass the lawsuit on" to whomever I bought it from) in good faith, ad infinitum. In the words of my lawyer - "The bloody economy would collapse while the lawsuits were sorted out!" Additionally, if I give someone their money back, the story is over.

I re-iterate, that I only list items I truly believe to be genuine, and have NEVER, in 10 years, been accused of doing otherwise. I refund everyone for ANY reason that they are unhappy eg, "The colour looked different on my monitor, I'm always a size 12 at Target, My son broke his leg and won't be going on the school trip, Her grandma bought her a skisuit already" etc, etc, etc.

But I am not infallible, and there are some very good fakes around. If in doubt, I don't buy the item in the first place. However the companies looking to prosecute are not looking to sue middle aged women flogging ONE ski jacket that turns out not to be genuine. They are chasing people at markets, or people selling entire ranges of new items purporting to be the real thing. Some of the goods I sell are by companies no longer in business - where would I stand if someone questioned the legitimacy of such an item (skiwear that is often only used for a few days a year can last forever!)

I'm not looking for a bunfight here, but consumer law is nowhere as cut and dried as you seem to be implying - particularly in respect of second-hand goods. As my guy said, the onus is not on the seller to provide the provenance (although you can ask for it), but for the buyer to prove otherwise.

Marina.

eBay has time and again, issued account restrictions because a buyer opens a paypal claim on the basis of goods being a knock off - if you are unable to prove it was not - it leaves your business very exposed to being shut down due to a single disgruntled buyer if you can not with certainity demonstrate your goods are the real deal,

Remember eBay has been issued (and fought) with multi million dollar fines in the past, so a sellers activities exposes it to risks that it doesn't need to prove to shut your operations down.

Whilst consumer law may have some grey areas, I think I can also safely say that those corporations that hold trademark and brand rights to goods being sold with their label - whether new or second hand - are also not so grey when it comes to a whisper that goods being sold by may be copies. I personally would never want to fight that kind of battle.

In addition, please don't take the comments so personally, I don't seek a "bun fight" as you put it.

I am putting forward my opinion on the very high risks that may apply if you are not certain, and cannot prove, that the goods you sell are the real deal. My advice is actually very consistent IMO with that given to many other posters overtime by many regulars, including some that have posted in this thread.