topic Re: Chargeback Case Opened in Selling

Chargeback Case Opened

clarry100 — Wed, 30 Jul 2014 22:21:20 GMT

Hi all,

We have just received a notice from PayPal that a chargeback case has been opened against our account.

The reason as stated is "unauthorised use".

The amount is only $5.50 so not a total killer. But it's the principle here.

And they will charge us a $15 fee for the privelege. How utterly rude.

They have asked us to provide any evidence we have to help them fight this case.

We use regular large letter so we don't have tracking informatioin.

In any case its not about if/not we mailed out the item (which of course we did), nor is it about item not as described.

We have done all the right things in good faith and now it looks like we just loose the money.

Blatant rip-off by PayPal and the banks IMHO.

Might be time for FIO report methinks.

Anyone got any ideas on how to fight these things?

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

harley_babes_hoard — Wed, 30 Jul 2014 22:47:53 GMT

*touch wood* in 4 years I have never had one of these. I am curious how you proceed also. $15.00 is a bit steep.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

thecatspjs — Wed, 30 Jul 2014 22:51:30 GMT

Have you rung the buyer to discuss directly? This can often get the matter sorted.

It may be that they are overspent on their credit card and the bank is trying to recover its funds, sometimes buyers are not even aware that their bank is attempting to recover funds through chargebacks.

IMO credit card chargebacks are just one of the many risks when doing business - whether online or B&M.

Paypal conditions are clear about the evidence that is required for seller protection - proof of addressee and proof of post.

Not sure what case you mount with FIO.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

clarry100 — Wed, 30 Jul 2014 23:45:52 GMT

I have messaged the buyer about it but so far no response.

This is a new buyer with a FB score of 5.

No FB left for other sellers.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

ucelsoya — Wed, 30 Jul 2014 23:55:40 GMT

I take it that your buyer has complained to PayPal that the item was not received. PayPal will then ask you for proof of posting to the buyers correct address.

I have adopted the following process to combat buyers who receive their item and then claim under "Buyer Protection" that they did not receive it and thus get their money back as well.

1. When a sale is made I create a "Proof of Posting" (POP) folder for that sale and name it "Buyers Name" (not buyers ID).

2. I put a copy of the PayPal Payment Notification (PPN) showing the date and items purchased into the folder.

3. I put a copy of the image/s of all the items which are on the PPN into the folder.

4 I address the letter to the address shown on the PPN. (not the EBay address - in some cases these two addresses are different).

5. When the letter is submitted for posting I ask for a circular postmarker handstamp to be used and for the date to be clearly showing on the envelope and not "hidden in the stamp" and then I photograph this area of the envelope.

6. I put a copy of the posting photo into the POP folder.

7 I keep this folder till positive feedback has been received.

If a Buyer claims that an item was not received then I can send all the images to PayPal as evidence for "Proof of Posting" of the item concerned. The images can also be offered to the buyer to assist with a claim against the relevant Post Offices for a "Lost in Post" claim.

This may seem to be a lot of effort but it will help Sellers provide Paypal with the evidence required.

Hope this helps.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

bigbrickshop — Thu, 31 Jul 2014 00:00:39 GMT

I agree with Cats.

Give the buyer a call. If you don't already have their phone number you can request their details from eBay.

Do you have a Business PayPal account? Some buyers initiate chargebacks when they see payments on their creditcard statements and cannot recall making a purchase from Joe Blow. With Business accounts your PayPal transactions on creditcard statements will show your business name or your eBay store name, whatever you select in your PayPal settings.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

clarry100 — Thu, 31 Jul 2014 00:10:36 GMT

This is not about INR or item SNAD.

Its about chargeback for unauthorised use.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

thecatspjs — Thu, 31 Jul 2014 00:50:07 GMT

If it is a new or infrequent buyer then that is further reason to pull their contact details and ring them. Being proactive is not going to make the situation any worse.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

clarry100 — Thu, 31 Jul 2014 01:21:12 GMT

OK I just got off the phone with PayPal and here is the end result....

The paypal operator was very helpful indeed I must say.

Because we used standard mail and therefore we have no tracking or proof of postage, in this case we will lose the case if we fight it and will therefore lose the $5.50 plus a $15 fee for them to fight it for us.

So she advised that the best way is that we accept the liability for the chargeback and then we simply lose the $5.50.

But... because of the small amount involved she made a discretionary refund to our account under the seller protection program for the $5.50.

There is no black mark on our account either.

So end result the case is now closed and we are not out of pocket.

So a good outcome.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

cq_tech — Thu, 31 Jul 2014 01:32:42 GMT

Well done, Clarry. A surprising pleasant result from Paypal though, I must say.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

phorum_junkie* — Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:37:14 GMT

I have always found Paypal very reasoable, even if it has taken a bit of effort on my part. Although you are no longer out of pocket I would email the buyer giving them your bank details and telling them that unless they make a payment for the item they have received which has been the subject of a chargeback or they return the item to you in unused condition you will be reporting them to the polce for otaiing goods by deception.

Of course without any proof of posting it is an emoty threat but it may scare them enough to not do the same thing again.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

thecatspjs — Thu, 31 Jul 2014 12:00:56 GMT

@phorum_junkie* wrote:
I have always found Paypal very reasoable, even if it has taken a bit of effort on my part. Although you are no longer out of pocket I would email the buyer giving them your bank details and telling them that unless they make a payment for the item they have received which has been the subject of a chargeback or they return the item to you in unused condition you will be reporting them to the polce for otaiing goods by deception.

Of course without any proof of posting it is an emoty threat but it may scare them enough to not do the same thing again.

Very poor advice indeed.

There is no indication that the buyer even knows that a chargeback has occurred.There are many reasons that a bank will initiate chargebacks not all of them related to fraudulent transactions.

The seller has received compensation for the sale, to extort further funds is unacceptable in most decent sellers books.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

davewil1964 — Thu, 31 Jul 2014 13:12:17 GMT

I doubt it.

The usual reason for a chargeback is that the buyer exceeded their credit limit and the bank is cancelling transactions to bring the CC back to the agreed limit.

Clary well knows he has no recourse, as posting without tracking means he has no Paypal seller protection, and this is a business model he has consciously adopted. AND full well knows the consequences of. The best thing is to not dispute the chargeback, which I believe means he won't have to wear the $15, as that is supposed to be the fee for an unsuccessful disputation of the chargeback.

I could be wrong, but it is unlikely in this instance.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

clarry100 — Fri, 01 Aug 2014 00:49:03 GMT

You are correct Dave.

The PayPal operator told me that since I have accepted liability that there will be no $15 fee becasue Paypal do not have to fight it now on my behalf. And I would have lost anyway becuase I could not provide proof of postage as required.

I have already been compensated my $5.50 by a discretionary payment from Paypal. So I am happy now we are not out of pocket.

I did initially message the buyer asking if/not they knew about this and for an explanation but have still heard nothing back.

So since we are not out of pocket now my intention is to leave it all alone now, and just add this buyer to our BBL.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

clarry100 — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 03:00:11 GMT

Wonders will never cease.

We got a reply from the buyer about this chargeback today.

She was very apologetic and said she had no idea that it had even happened and had not reversed any payments on her card.

She was happy and had received her item, although she had not left us any feedback.

She also said that she had the same question from another seller.

I told her that we had been compensated by PayPal so we were not out of pocket.

She said she will be taking this up with her card provider/bank to find out what is going on.

How is is that the card holder could not be aware of a chargeback?

Can banks simply make a unilateral decision to strip cash from a bona-fide seller?

And call it unauthorised use?

Surely the card holder is the only one who can say if/not a payment made on their card is unauthorised or not?

Something smells dodgey here.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

thecatspjs — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 03:16:20 GMT

clarry this possibility was noted in earlier posts in this thread, perhaps review those.

Terms and conditions of credit cards are available online, and if you go over the limit or not repay your credit debt (among other things) your bank can indeed seek to recover its funds.

The advice "unauthorised use" can mean many things including not authorised by bank to exceed credit limit, from what I can gather it is a fairly standard line from paypal in commincations re chargeback, no need for hysteria or outrage.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

honest.johns.phones — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 20:40:32 GMT

I had a charge back at the beginning of last month, I immediately accepted liability and still wore a $15 fee. Can't win.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

clarry100 — Thu, 07 Aug 2014 06:49:29 GMT

Isn't it inconsistent.

On the phone the CSR said if I accept liability they will not charge the $15 fee becasue they dont have to fight it..

So far we have not seen it, but that's not to say they still won't do it.

We will see.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

clarry100 — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 05:18:28 GMT

Here's some further info on this one....

About a week ago PayPal sent us a message to say they would be reversing their original decision to compensate us for the $5.50 loss.

So back to being out of pocket again.

So I messaged the buyer once again after having told her that PayPal had given us our money back and we were not out of pocket.

She answered today asking me to send an invoice to her PayPal account for the $5.50 and she has paid it straight away.

So now we have the $5.50 back again.

Talk about tennis!!

Still none the wiser as to what actually happened but the buyer had told us one time that she never knew anything about the chargeback.

But.... satisfactory outcome in the end. And PayPal never charged us the $15 fee either.

Re: Chargeback Case Opened

cq_tech — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 08:04:13 GMT

Nice to know that Paypal can make a discretionary payment one day, then dishonour it the next! Seems to me that Paypal is being run by a group of poorly trained chimpanzees! 😞