topic Re: PayPal Policy Update in Selling

PayPal Policy Update

bigbrickshop — Mon, 13 Oct 2014 23:03:19 GMT

Have I missed an email about the latest update to the User Agreement?

https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full

Changes to the User Agreement, Combined Financial Services Guide and other policies

Effective date: 18 November 2014

Re: PayPal Policy Update

digital*ghost — Mon, 13 Oct 2014 23:11:52 GMT

I haven't received an email about those changes either - and they have to be some of the more significant ones I've seen.

So the 180 day extension is coming here too from Nov. 18... and what's the deal with special Gumtree policies? No buyer protection, but seller gets automatic protection for unauthorised transaction without having to provide proof of postage or anything... ?

Re: PayPal Policy Update

bakeandfry — Mon, 13 Oct 2014 23:14:31 GMT

I got that one from paypal some weeks ago. It scares the hell out of me about the 180 days and another 20 days for a dispute. I'm pulling everything last day of september.

Re: PayPal Policy Update

Anonymous — Mon, 13 Oct 2014 23:17:02 GMT

180 days.. thats stupid.. so effectively we are giving everyone 6 months warranty, or 6 months to play with items then get their money back when they have had enough

Re: PayPal Policy Update

cmcoins2000 — Mon, 13 Oct 2014 23:17:19 GMT

@bigbrickshop wrote:
Have I missed an email about the latest update to the User Agreement?

https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full

Changes to the User Agreement, Combined Financial Services Guide and other policies

Effective date: 18 November 2014

Well, isn't that a loo loo.

Not covered if a seller combines items purchased through separate PayPal payments into a single shipment.

The only mention - interestingly - is 'PROOF OF SHIPMENT', not 'PROOF OF DELIVERY'.

Re: PayPal Policy Update

digital*ghost — Mon, 13 Oct 2014 23:20:37 GMT

@cmcoins2000 wrote:

Not covered if a seller combines items purchased through separate PayPal payments into a single shipment.

The only mention - interestingly - is 'PROOF OF SHIPMENT', not 'PROOF OF DELIVERY'.

PayPal have always had those two requirements, though. It's eBay who will be requiring proof of delivery.

Re: PayPal Policy Update

bigbrickshop — Mon, 13 Oct 2014 23:23:25 GMT

Helen, that has always applied to combining purchases.

So now we have 2 very different Buyer Protection schemes.

For an Item not Received:

If the buyer claims under the eBay Money Back Guarantee they have to do so within 30 days of expected delivery date and the seller has to have Proof of Delivery.

If the buyer claims under the PayPal Buyer Protection they have to do so within 180 days of date of transaction and the seller has to have Proof of Shipment.

Lose, lose for sellers 😞

Re: PayPal Policy Update

lyndal1838 — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 01:22:54 GMT

There are going to be a lot of INR disputes for overseas items if you now have to open the dispute within 30 days, especially if the US sellers are using the GSP.

Re: PayPal Policy Update

digital*ghost — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 01:52:25 GMT

@lyndal1838 wrote:
There are going to be a lot of INR disputes for overseas items if you now have to open the dispute within 30 days, especially if the US sellers are using the GSP.

The eBay policy gives 30 days after the last ETA they put in the listing. I can't remember the timeframe when no specific date is calculated, it's a couple of weeks at least though to allow for delivery, then the +30 days.

That also means a seller has moderate control over how long the eBay MBG can be - have a 0-day handling time, the buyer will probably get about 36 days from the date of sale. Sell pre-order stuff with a 20-day handling time, they'll get more like 55 days or so.

I keep forgetting to mention, as well, that supposedly a buyer can't send an INR request until the day after the latest ETA. So that should put an end to "where is my item?" messages the day after purchase.

Re: PayPal Policy Update

lyndal1838 — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 02:10:36 GMT

Thanks for clarifying Digi.

Not being a seller I sometimes miss the Fine Print in these policies initially.

It really must be a nightmare for sellers...I do not think I have ever seen so many controversial policies introduced at the same time.

Re: PayPal Policy Update

bakeandfry — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 02:20:53 GMT

Dg, so does that mean if somthing sells before change, and the 30 days from ebay push it past to the new change, does it then automaticly then change from 45 days to 180 days on paypal????

Re: PayPal Policy Update

digital*ghost — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 02:27:51 GMT

I actually wouldn't mind eBay's MBG if it was implemented in a more fair way, it's what I and the majority of sellers already do, by and large. It's more the fact that not only will a lost article make a seller 'defective' (I still can't get over that, it's so ridiculous ) but also that they've made it so that you're risking far too much to even try and dispute a fraudulent claim of INAD - every seller should have the right to do that without risking being kicked off eBay just because eBay turns a blind eye to these sorts of things.

I also worry what that will mean now that PayPal has 180 days to open an INAD dispute, as well, specifically whether they will handle a case opened 6 months after the sale differently to how they handle a case opened 2 weeks after the sale, and what chances a seller has of winning a INAD case when the buyer has had the item for that long, because a lost PayPal dispute will count as a case closed without seller resolution and more than two of those will mean below standard and account restrictions for all but high volume sellers.

I have the option to drop PayPal as a payment option on another site because they have a facility for me to accept credit cards directly, and I should be able to set up credit card payments easily enough when I get the shop up and running on my own site, but it's pretty much a practial impossibility to drop it from eBay, now arguably the world's most dangerous place to try and build a viable business. 😕

I will never understand why they can't accept that increasing buyer confidence and security doesn't have to continually come at the cost of compromising it for sellers.

Re: PayPal Policy Update

digital*ghost — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 02:32:23 GMT

@bakeandfry wrote:
Dg, so does that mean if somthing sells before change, and the 30 days from ebay push it past to the new change, does it then automaticly then change from 45 days to 180 days on paypal????

The two protection programs will operate completely independently (except for an open PP case resulting in a defect, I believe), so for any item purchased after 1st November on eBay, the eBay MBG will be in effect (if the item is covered by the policy).

PayPal's 180 days will take effect after the 18th, so will apply for any items purchased and paid for via PayPal on and after that date, but any item purchased from now to the 18th will have the current PayPal 45 day limit.

Re: PayPal Policy Update

muppet_detector — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 02:34:20 GMT

I contacted PayPal and spoke to them about this 180 day policy. It might help if others did the same. It gave me some relief.

The two main purposes for the introduction of the 180 day policy are

1) To bring the PayPal claim period in line with times permitted for credit card chargebacks as these are very costly to address.

2) To address the situation where unsuspecting buyers get dragged out past the 45 day claim period by unscrupulous sellers.

There was also discussion about coverage past the 45 day period for warranty issues

I was told that any claims past the 45 day period would receive a higher level of scrutiny and the claimant would be required to provide explanations for the delay in submitting a claim.

The concern of items such as clothing were discussed and I was told that it would be very hard to win a claim for the item not meeting the description after the 45 days as consideration would be given for when the buyer received the item and a common sense approach adapted that the buyer had the item in their posession for x amount of days and had time to inspect/wear or alter or otherwise use in that time.

Give PayPal a ring and let them clarify further. They will also spend time with you discussing the kinds of documentation that they recommend that you keep should you need to dispute a claim.

Re: PayPal Policy Update

bakeandfry — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 02:38:31 GMT

Ok, thankyou . I got a little worryed there

Re: PayPal Policy Update

lyndal1838 — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 03:42:41 GMT

@digital*ghost wrote:

I will never understand why they can't accept that increasing buyer confidence and security doesn't have to continually come at the cost of compromising it for sellers.

To be honest, I fail to see why ebay/paypal needs to keep on increasing buyer confidence and security at all.

In 99% of the buyers who come to the boards with complaints, when you get to the bottom of the story they have not used the Resolution facilites correctly to start with.

To my way of thinking a lot more education for both buyers and sellers would go a long way to avoiding more restrictive rules for sellers without giving unscrupulous buyers the all clear to scam sellers.

Re: PayPal Policy Update

digital*ghost — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 03:46:34 GMT

@lyndal1838 wrote:
@digital*ghost wrote:

I will never understand why they can't accept that increasing buyer confidence and security doesn't have to continually come at the cost of compromising it for sellers.
To be honest, I fail to see why ebay/paypal needs to keep on increasing buyer confidence and security at all.

In 99% of the buyers who come to the boards with complaints, when you get to the bottom of the story they have not used the Resolution facilites correctly to start with.

To my way of thinking a lot more education for both buyers and sellers would go a long way to avoiding more restrictive rules for sellers without giving unscrupulous buyers the all clear to scam sellers.

I couldn't agree more - I almost want to revoke the kudos just so I can kudos it again.

Re: PayPal Policy Update

cherry*135 — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 03:53:46 GMT

Warranty issues - how on earth can eBay decide if an item purchased (for example, a moblie phone) has been used properly, according to instructions, before it failed, without examining the item first... examined by tech specialists to see if it has been dropped in water, on hard surfaces etc?

Re: PayPal Policy Update

lyndal1838 — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 03:55:51 GMT

@muppet_detector wrote:
I contacted PayPal and spoke to them about this 180 day policy. It might help if others did the same. It gave me some relief.

The two main purposes for the introduction of the 180 day policy are

1) To bring the PayPal claim period in line with times permitted for credit card chargebacks as these are very costly to address.

2) To address the situation where unsuspecting buyers get dragged out past the 45 day claim period by unscrupulous sellers.

There was also discussion about coverage past the 45 day period for warranty issues

I was told that any claims past the 45 day period would receive a higher level of scrutiny and the claimant would be required to provide explanations for the delay in submitting a claim.

The concern of items such as clothing were discussed and I was told that it would be very hard to win a claim for the item not meeting the description after the 45 days as consideration would be given for when the buyer received the item and a common sense approach adapted that the buyer had the item in their posession for x amount of days and had time to inspect/wear or alter or otherwise use in that time.

Give PayPal a ring and let them clarify further. They will also spend time with you discussing the kinds of documentation that they recommend that you keep should you need to dispute a claim.

Thank you for all that information...I am sure it will help to set a lot of seller's minds at rest.

As I am not a seller it is not of much use to me and as a buyer I have had no problems at all with complying with the current 45 days rule for making a claim.

In over 12,000 individual purchases I have only ever had to resort to a bank chargeback once, due to a failed paypal claim.

Re: PayPal Policy Update

digital*ghost — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 05:09:55 GMT

At this stage, sadly I'd rather be comforted by what PayPal do than what they say, which means waiting to see what things are like in 6 months to a year.