topic Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments? in Selling

Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

2011emc2 — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:54:58 GMT

As a first-time seller, I had a buyer who didn't pay and didn't bother to contact me or respond to my emails. I opened an ‘Unpaid Item’ case, which again got no response, and closed the case today.

Yet the only feedback option available to me was to leave 'Positive' feedback for this buyer.

Really, eBay???

This 'buyer' still has a '100% positive' feedback rating on eBay. How is this honest or fair? Shouldn't a feedback system allow members of a community to comment on their actual dealings with people in that community?

Little wonder some sellers try to sneak in negative comments using the positive feedback option, to try to warn other unsuspecting sellers. Yet eBay deletes these from buyers' profiles.

I think eBay should change its feedback policy in order to allow equal footing for buyers and sellers. So sellers would be allowed to either: (a) leave negative feedback - if only for non-payment; or (b) automaticallly note non-payments into each buyer's feedback profile, so these are clear for all to see.

It's not a problem to demonstrate that a buyer hasn't paid. Why not give sellers the same rights as buyers to leave honest feedback? Wouldn't everyone benefit?

I didn't ship the item because payment never arrived or cleared. Still, what a negative experience, especially the shocking attitude toward sellers whose fees sustain and enrich eBay.

What is your opinion on eBay's feedback policy for sellers?

(Newbies: FB = feedback, NP = non-payment)

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

the3coopers — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:07:26 GMT

You need to set Buyer Requirements from My Ebay > Account > Site Preferences... and block known non-payers.

It's not viable to check buyer's feedbacks before purchase, so there is no point leaving them negs anyway. Naming and shaming them does not work either - if they don't care about paying, why would they care about a red dot on a computer screen?

Maybe you don't know, but ebay deliberately stopped sellers leaving negatives a few years back, because of a serious and ongoing problem that it caused.

As a new member you can have absolutely no idea how bad it was years ago when sellers could leave malicious, retaliatory negs for buyers. The ones who actually matter (the GOOD buyers) were copping negatives from sellers when they complained about poor service or products... it was a nightmare.

Non-payers are a fact of life in sales. Just deal with them as quickly as possible, and move on... there is nothing to gain by abusing them (it just makes you as a seller look bad anyway - slagging off clients is NOT a good look)

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

2011emc2 — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:53:35 GMT

the3coopers -

Many thanks for your very thoughtful and informative response. I changed my buyer requirement settings and that might well help me if I decide to relist the item.

Based on the historical account you have given, I can understand why eBay changed the feedback rules. I would not support any system that allows dishonest or malicious feedback in any form.

Yet I had no intention of going ‘chicken killer’ with the negative comments - I wanted to simply note the non-payment. It just doesn’t make sense to hide NP on any transaction, nor does it make sense for this buyer to still be presenting a ‘100% positive feedback’ profile to the rest of the community.

At the end of the day, people on eBay know each other only through their user profiles. So I think it’s important for these profiles to (as accurately as possible) reflect each person’s behaviour in terms of their transactions with other members of the community.

At the very least, I think I would still support having NPs recorded and figured into the buyer’s profile by eBay, once it has been established that the buyer did not pay for the item. This would prevent malicious feedback from unscrupulous sellers, while making the system more fair, accurate and accountable for everyone’s benefit.

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

viewmont1071 — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 18:13:09 GMT

This is how ebay advertise their feedback system to NEW members ........ is it any wonder that people feel misled????

http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/feedback/howitworks.html

Whenever you buy or sell something, we ask that you leave Feedback about the transaction that reflects your experience with the buyer or seller.

At the same time, we ask your trading partner to leave Feedback about you as well.

Over time, eBay memebers develop a Feedback Profile, or reputation, based on the comments and ratings left by other members.

The Feedback score is one of the most important pieces of a Feedback Profile.

It’s the number in parentheses next to a member’s user ID and it’s also located at the top of the member’s Feedback Profile.

Why leave Feedback?

Leaving honest comments gives members a good idea of what to expect when dealing with other members.

Leaving Feedback is also a way to express your appreciation for a job well done.

Finally, if you are a buyer, you can help spread the word about a seller you like, and if you are a seller, you can help recognise and reward loyal customers, which encourages them to buy from you again.

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

phorum_junkie* — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:09:10 GMT

It's not a problem to demonstrate that a buyer hasn't paid

What about the many buyers who realise, better late than never, that the item they have bought is fake/doesn't exist/is really not as described etc before making payment. If they come here we always say DON'T PAY!

Should they have that recorded against their account? Of course it wouldn't make an awful lot of difference as checking out every single bidder on all your items is an impossible task unless you only sell a couple of things at a time and how would you stop them sniping at the last minute?

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

2011emc2 — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:19:42 GMT

viewmont1071 -

Thank you for posting eBay’s own words promoting the value of its system of feedback and profiles. I think it’s fair to say that what eBay says and what eBay does are two different things! I think eBay should start honouring the spirit and intention of the feedback system it clearly presents to its members.

phorum junkie -

With respect to your first point, my understanding is that eBay intervenes and advocates strongly for buyers who don’t receive an item or receive an item that is significantly different from that which was advertised by an unscrupulous seller - and these buyers get full refunds. And of course that should not be recorded as non-payment on their accounts. This is why I favour having eBay leave the feedback for non-payment, to ensure that only unscrupulous buyers are identified as non-payers.

Regarding the ‘impossible’ task of ‘checking out every single bidder’ - that really misses the point of my argument. I’m saying that it just makes sense for each profile to fairly and accurately reflect (as much as possible) the experiences that other members have had in their dealings with that person. If sellers decide that’s too much trouble, well that’s their decision. But is it really too onerous to check the profiles of the top bidder/s? You should be able to quickly see if any of the top bidders have had any non-payments, then cancel their bids and deal with more reliable bidders. This just bolsters the argument that eBay needs to restore the integrity of their feedback system.

jillywinkle -

I wish I’d done that when I had the chance! Good on you. I think it is fair and proper to warn other sellers of ‘buyers’ who bid and then ‘develop amnesia’ as you so kindly put it. I am frankly gobsmacked that eBay does not factor in non-payments when calculating a person’s feedback profile. That would raise a clearly visible red flag for sellers who don’t have the time to trawl through every single ‘positive’ comment to look for hidden feedback about non-payments.

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

lane-ends — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:41:05 GMT

Nah, it just sucks you into a tit for tatt, you neg them they neg you..Some sellers will withold feedback and automatically neg anyone who dares to neg them, regardless of how much the seller deserved the neg. This results in some sellers intimidating buyers hence keeping their fb % up while at the same time being aggressive and poor sellers.

Better off moving on, giving them an invisible and impersonal strike. less stressful and more effective. So what, you sell 100 items and 5 people inconvenience you by not paying and causing you to relist. Its not the same as forking out money and receiving a peice of junk in return.

If you stay out of squabbles, file, close then relist, makes life a lot easier. Occassional non payers are part of life as a seller, juat accept it and dont get bogged down with them

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

phorum_junkie* — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:29:38 GMT

All leaving a pos with a negative comment does is draw attention to the fact you aren't interested in following ebay policies.

As a buyer I would wonder if you also flouted the rules by describing things wrongly or indeed if you would bother to send what I purchased.

Likely outcome if I saw you breaking the rules would be I would hit the back button and find a seller who did things by the book.

It also leaves you open to a policy violation being recorded against your account, too many of those and you won't be able to sell at all.

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

mia_store — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:37:04 GMT

I strongly agree seller should have right to give negative FB. I can forgive peope who don't pay if they think the item are fake or they regret. The transaction can be cancelled after communication between both sides. However some buyers are malicious and don't have credit at all. They just bid then go away. Have a look at this example:

http://feedback.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=i.bogoda8486&ftab=AllFeedback&myworld=true

I don't understand why such buyer can be still allowed in eBay. Sellers should have right to know such buyer and put them in black list. I totally agree buyer should have proctection. But eBay should also considered proctecting sellers against malicious bidders. After all, eBay get paid by sellers instead of buyers.

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

the3coopers — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:02:34 GMT

However some buyers are malicious and don't have credit at all. They just bid then go away. Have a look at this example:

http://feedback.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=EDITED_TO_REMOVE_LINK

I don't understand why such buyer can be still allowed in eBay.

The are allowed on eBay because all those sellers have given them Positive Feedback and none of them have issued Non-Payment Strikes.

If just TWO of those sellers had issued a strike, then the buyer could be blocked from purchasing. It is the SELLERS, not eBay, who are letting that get away with it.

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

the3coopers — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:07:03 GMT

Sellers should have right to know such buyer and put them in black list.

It is totally and utterly impractical to read and verify the feedback of buyers before they prurchase. So, even if that buyer had 1,000 Negs, you couldn't stop them from buying from you.

However, EVERY seller has the ability to block non-payers. The blockage works for ALL bad buyers, and it's completely automatic. You don't have to read feedback, you don't have to do a thing!

I am assuming that you don't have the "Non-Payer-Block" set up, which is why you are getting so wound up about the whole thing, correct?

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

davewil1964 — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:26:23 GMT

I find it interesting that it is usually low FB, hence presumably inexperienced, sellers who advocate this daily.

If any of them bothered to scroll through the first page here, they would find threads already addressing this. And the same answers.

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

2011emc2 — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:29:24 GMT

lane ends -

I agree that it’s best to avoid meaningless and negative tit-for-tats. I think that would be prevented if eBay automatically factored the non-payment into the buyer's feedback profile and barred them from leaving feedback about that seller.

phorum junkie -

That is why the rules need to be changed. My premise is that profiles should accurately reflect each member’s behaviour in their dealings on eBay. Is that really controversial? Like you, I don’t have a desire to break the rules. What I really want is to change the rules. It is manifestly unfair that sellers who indicate non-payment from buyers - using the very limited means at their disposal - are punished by eBay while buyers who don’t pay get to keep their 100% positive feedback profile. On top of that, other sellers are not warned about their behaviour ... and isn't that the point of feedback?

mia_store -

Thanks for your response and for giving an excellent example of a deadbeat buyer. Why should these sellers have to risk being slapped with a violation to warn others about a buyer who just wastes everyone’s time?

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

2011emc2 — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:05:18 GMT

coops -

It would be outrageous for a seller to be forced to deal with a buyer who has ‘1,000 negs’. That’s even worse than the woefully deficient feedback system ... and in fact defeats the entire purpose of having feedback.

It’s worth noting that sellers can only block buyers who have refused to pay on two occasions. I would like to block all non-payers, or least be able to tell who they are from their feedback ratings.

davewil1964 -

It’s not important whether this has been brought up before or whether it was brought up by new sellers. What’s important is that the discussion arrives at the correct conclusion and that eBay keeps hearing it from more and more of us. It seems like common sense that feedback profiles should accurately reflect the behaviour of members.

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

davewil1964 — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:25:47 GMT

However, the current system is better than the previous system, which you seem to be advocating.

Almost all of my items are BIN. In fact only 22,000 out of 9,000,000 (approx 0.25%) items in the category I sell in are auction only. How would negative buyer feedback help any of the 99.75% vet buyers? Or the 0.25% when the buyer bids right at the end? Setting blocks for NPBs does.

Which way is better? Well, experienced sellers seem to prefer the current regime, so that might have some relevance to the discussion.

And eBay rarely read the boards, so if you think this thread will even get looked at, much less sway their thinking, I suspect you will be disappointed.

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

2011emc2 — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 15:03:09 GMT

davewil1964 -

The feedback rating is the only information we have when deciding whether or not to enter into a transaction with another member of the eBay community. To quote eBay directly (http://pages.ebay.com.au/services/forum/feedback.html):

“For each transaction, buyers and sellers can rate each other by leaving Feedback. Each Feedback consists of a positive, negative, or neutral rating, and a short comment … Leaving honest comments about a particular eBay member gives other Community members a good idea of what to expect when dealing with that member.”

So eBay 'sells' FB as a useful and meaningful mechanism that promotes fairness and honest dealings between members, then ensures that it cannot work as it's supposed to work.

I am not actually advocating the previous system (or indeed the system described above by eBay). To quote my first response to coops:

“I would not support any system that allows dishonest or malicious feedback in any form … I think I would still support having NPs recorded and figured into the buyer’s profile by eBay, once it has been established that the buyer did not pay for the item. This would prevent malicious feedback from unscrupulous sellers, while making the system more fair, accurate and accountable for everyone’s benefit.”

Pulling rank is not particularly relevant or convincing. So what if I’m a new seller? My premise is still valid: NPs should be factored into a buyer’s feedback rating. How absurd that such important and relevant FB is systemically excluded, leaving non-paying buyers to maintain 100% positive FB ratings.

And it appears that sellers more experienced than either of us do care about NPs and do take calculated risks to warn others - follow the link provided in the above response posted by mia_store.

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

rumplebear1951 — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:31:22 GMT

The feedback rating is the only information we have when deciding whether or not to enter into a transaction with another member of the eBay community

If all sellers had their non paying bidder blocks in place then buyer feedback would be irrelevant...they simply would not be able to bid on your items in the first place.

The only reason that sellers get away with leaving false positives is because most buyers do not realise that they can report them.

Just as an aside...don't ever assume that feedback rating of posters on these forums equates with experience.

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

viewmont1071 — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:31:43 GMT

It appears that many members in the forum microcosm would prefer that NPB strikes wre at least acknowledged ie

after a non paying bidder dispute is raised and ebay in it's sole discretion issues the strike that if it was recorded either by a running count or by a $ sign with a cross through it and an unemotional non paying bidder then ebays strike system will work better

It would work better because those that leave negative positives now would be more likely to raise a dispute ( not that we know that they do not raise a npb dispute) so that they could see "the mark" on the NPB feedback.

It would not take long for those that rarely or those that never ever review ebay's policies to seek information as how to leave "the mark."

More members opening NPB disputes means that the automatic blocks can work better.... the lookers could look the blockers could block......simple 😐

Some people need transparency to support a system and also need to see results before they are convinced to follow suit.

That is just human nature.

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

phorum_junkie* — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:34:50 GMT

I find it interesting that it is usually low FB, hence presumably inexperienced, sellers who advocate this daily.

Have you never heard of posting ids?

Most, if not all of the sellers who prefer the new system have selling ids, mine have well over 2,000 feedback between them and that is tiny compared to some you are referring to.

Most of us also were selling under the old system so know that this way is better.

If sellers go through the unpaid item process and also have their buyer blocks in place then anyone who doesn't pay more than once cannot bid on/buy any of your items.

Re: Should sellers be able to leave negative feedback for non-payments?

digital*ghost — Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:06:36 GMT

The feedback rating is the only information we have when deciding whether or not to enter into a transaction with another member of the eBay community.

In the grand scheme of things (as in, on a per transaction basis), the percentage of transactions that occur on eBay where one has the opportunity to decide if they'll enter into a transaction with a buyer is minimal.

Certain blocks can be put in place to prevent it entirely, but if a block doesn't take effect, the only circumstances in which you can decide if a buyer makes a purchase from you is a) if they have been blocked and send a request to be allowed to buy, b) if you're running an auction and they bid with enough time left to enable you to peruse their profile and cancel the bid if desired, c) submit an offer via one of the listing formats that allows it.

In all other circumstances, you don't get a choice. They bid/buy and you are automatically entered into a transaction with the other person. As eBay do not have a system you can use that relies - in part - on a visual element to be able to block someone, which is why the visual element is often considered inconsequential, or impractical - as has been noted by several members already, though I do think viewmont makes a valid point in terms of what motivates people to participate in a system that leaves a visual record.

Personally, I don't care about a visual record of payment history. NPBs take up so little of my time and I wouldn't increase it by looking at their profile - an action that won't make them pay after they've purchased my item, anyway. If there was to be any visual system that allows sellers to protect themselves from certain buyer behaviours, NPBs are way down the end of the list in terms of my own priorities. Fraudulent chargebacks & PayPal claims, feedback extortion and/or other attempts to negotiate additional terms post-purchase and a few other things would be much higher. But I also know that "good" buyers often fear negative feedback, and "bad" buyers generally don't, so the changes it would bring about might not benefit sellers the way you think.