topic Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case in Selling

Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

seaworthee1 — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 05:48:25 GMT

To cut a long story short:

1) Sent a camera with accessories to a buyer.

2) Buyer claims that accessories were sent in box, but not the camera body. Claims that the box was not tampered with.

3) Buyer opens a dispute in Paypal almost immediately after receiving said item, escalates it to a claim after I said I packed everything in the box. Did not give me a chance to seriously investigate the matter or come up with some sort of amicable solution.

4) I have provided documentary evidence of tracking, postage etc, photos - but obviously this proof is useless in a SNAD case.

5) I've also rang Australia Post and they confirmed it was delivered, and that it wasn't opened for routine inspection or anything like that. There is now an investigation underway as to the whereabouts of this item.

I suspect Australia Post will rule against my claim because as far as they are concerned, the item was delivered (albeit apparently missing the auction item). I'm also fairly likely to lose in the dispute with PayPal, as buyers are wholly protected in cases of items significantly not as described provided they return the item.

Is there any recourse of action for myself? The buyer is in the process of filing a police report and signing a stat dec, all because I sent an item I knew to be 100% accurate and true to the listing. I have been now advised to file a police report and stat dec myself, but this **bleep**-for-tat business doesn't seem like it will produce a result in the end. It will be a case of his stat dec versus my stat dec, and so on.

It might also be unwise of me to file a police report if I am not sure the buyer has kept the item and is claiming that he did not receive it in full. Australia Post are investigating things on their end but it would appear to take a lot more time than it takes to resolve an average PayPal dispute.

Any advice here would be greatly appreciated. Thankyou.

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

harley_babes_hoard — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 05:51:42 GMT

do you have the receipt? what was the weight on the receipt it would be significantly less with no actual camera in the box?

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

seaworthee1 — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 05:54:34 GMT

I have a receipt of lodgement but it was sent using flat rate postage (BX4 mailing box) using the paid for postage labels on Ebay, i.e. there is no recorded weight on the receipt.

Even if the buyer sends the package back to me, there is nothing to say he wouldn't tamper with it further or send nothing back at all.

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

character_parties_aus — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 05:56:18 GMT

Whilst the weight will probably not assist in winning the claim directly, it will definately assist in any police investigation on the matter. If you have that then you can scare the wits out of the buyer with it which of course may assist with winning the claim!

This is where my use of e-parcel is fantastic as I have the weight to the gram on every big order and its shut down a few arguments. I dont think you get exact weight on click and send? could be wrong of course

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

aps1080 — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 05:57:17 GMT

These are damn hard one's to solve because it involves trust. I don't have a solution except to say that

I have taken to taking a photo of the items in the box before sealing.

Good luck.

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

seaworthee1 — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 06:03:50 GMT

I will be using eparcels in future then, that is for sure. Photos may have helped but they are just as easily manipulated for personal gain, and I honestly did not envisage such a hassle developing from this transaction. Lesson learnt.

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

i-love-my-sheep — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 07:55:31 GMT

Have you checked the buyers feedback to see if there is any evidence of SNAD's? Both in feedback left and feedback left for others. If he has a history of this in feedback, it might help your case.

Good luck is all I can say. It's a lot of money to lose to a scammer. Please keep us posted on any developments.

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

digital*ghost — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 08:37:45 GMT

@seaworthee1 wrote:
To cut a long story short:

1) Sent a camera with accessories to a buyer.
2) Buyer claims that accessories were sent in box, but not the camera body. Claims that the box was not tampered with.
3) Buyer opens a dispute in Paypal almost immediately after receiving said item, escalates it to a claim after

Did they communicate with you at all before opening the dispute? Going straight to a claim - while not damning evidence - raises a red flag to me, and sadly it wouldn't be the first time such things have happened.

I don't know how to go about defending such a claim, but all should not be lost if the buyer does win the dispute. They will have to send the item back by registered post in order to receive their refund - which may or may not be issued by PayPal before you have the item back. I would suggest opening the package in front of witnesses, and if the item is not returned in the same condition as when sent (including all components), you should have grounds to appeal any PayPal decision on this basis.

You may not get anywhere with them at first, but ask to speak to a supervisor, take down all the details of who you speak to, and if you don't get anywhere with them file a complaint with the BFSO.

You also have the option - if it gets to the point where the buyer has been refunded and has returned less than what you sent, to report them for online fraud. If the buyer had said the package was tampered with, then I would be more inclined to believe something else happened, but as I'm sure you're fully aware of what you sealed in the box, they confirmed the package was not tampered with, and that the camera was missing but all accessories were in the box, my suspicions lie elsewhere (who would tamper with a package, steal the camera but not the accessories, leave not trace of the tampering, then let the package go on its merry way? Sorry, I just don't buy it).

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

cherry*135 — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 08:51:46 GMT

Yes, odd the box wasn't tampered with but camera is missing. Seller put the camera in the box...

As i-love-my-sheep mentioned what is the buyer's history? been registered a short or long time? low or high fb, any feedback that suggests somethings didn't go right before?

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

seaworthee1 — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 09:13:56 GMT

You raise some valid points digitalghost, especially your last paragraph. I have since discovered that the buyer has left a total of fourteen (14) negative feedback transactions regarding 'item not received' and 'not as decribed' in the past 12 months, with one seller even mirroring my experience where he escalated to a claim pronto. 14 in the last 12 months seems excessive to me, I understand things go missing in the mail periodically but you can't be this unlucky surely. I'm confident that if I went back further than 12 months I would find similar instances of this feedback.

Yes, the buyer did communicate with me, albeit briefly after he received the goods in the mail. The conversation consisted basically of 'where is my camera?' and my responding that I had packed it in the box. While I was actually on hold to Australia Post I received an email from Paypal for a dispute and then a claim. There was precisely 9 minutes between the notification of a dispute and then a claim.

The buyer has won the PayPal dispute as of today, and has 10 days to ship whatever the buyer claims he got back to me. As I understand it, only then is PayPal/myself obligated to issue a refund.

Australia Post are investigating the matter but I do not expect them to rule in my favour as the item was delivered as far as they are concerned, and there was no damage or theft to the article in transit according to their representative. They are doing an investigation anyway, but it would take a very determined courier to get into the package, steal the camera, and then re-tape the package. It was heavily fortified with tape and bubblewrap and to deliver the item in a state that was apparently untampered with to the buyer is an amazing feat indeed.

I have made a complaint about the dispute to Paypal including the relevant information I have gleaned since then (the claim was opened so quickly that I had to combine all of my knowledge into one single response on the fly, without the ability to add more information as it came to hand). Moreover the complaint to Paypal will allow me to open a case with the FOS if necessary.

Thanks for your insightful post dg.

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

character_parties_aus — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 09:42:20 GMT

You can still perhaps get the buyer on the weight. before you open the packet upon return weigh it in front of witnesses and take a picture. was it sent back under the same weight as it was received?

might even be worth letting the buyer know you have the weight of the item once sent ( which you may or may not) and let them know you will weight it on return and if there is a descrepency you will report it to the police? will put the wind up them.

australia post weight everything nowadays so maybe they have a record of how much it weighed when it went to them?

I will ask my eparcel account manager tomorrow if they can retreive item weights. he can probably circumvent the usual ringing up rubbish.

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

lizzy6107 — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 11:27:05 GMT

This is one buyer we can all definitely add to our special lists.. what a crook!

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

cq_tech — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 14:47:19 GMT

@seaworthee1 wrote:
You raise some valid points digitalghost, especially your last paragraph. I have since discovered that the buyer has left a total of fourteen (14) negative feedback transactions regarding 'item not received' and 'not as decribed' in the past 12 months, with one seller even mirroring my experience where he escalated to a claim pronto. 14 in the last 12 months seems excessive to me, I understand things go missing in the mail periodically but you can't be this unlucky surely. I'm confident that if I went back further than 12 months I would find similar instances of this feedback.

I'd suggest from his feedback that's it's fairly obvious he's tried this on with other sellers and Paypal aren't stupid and will almost certainly have an active file on this buyer. At this stage I'm unsure how this is going to help you but given the circumstances, even if they find against you, it's entirely possible that Paypal may not penalise you by making you refund the buyer's payment and will quite possibly reimburse the buyer by way of a discretionary payment instead. I know this is how they've handled such cases in the past and I sincerely hope they have the decency to do the same thing in this particular case.

Can you possibly PM me the buyer's user ID? I'd love to check his previous feedback myself as well as adding him to my BBL.

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

i-love-my-sheep — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 01:12:25 GMT

If his feedback is as you described, then I think you really need to keep fighting this as he has 'history'. I'm sure if you checked the sellers of those feedback, you will probably find they are also expensive items.

I would keep absolutely everything you have pertaining to this transaction and if Paypal take a refund from you without the item being sent back, I would report it both to the FOS and the police. You should be able to file a report at your local police station, if not, report it to the online fraud squad. You have all the buyers details, so it will be easier to make a report.

Take screenshots of the order details page and file any correspendance from this buyer so nothing is at risk of being accidentally deleted.

I would also take a screenshot of their feedback. You can find out their entire feedback history by using http://toolhaus.com Put their username in the box and select feedback left by. It will show all the negative and neutral feedback left by that buyer for others. If there is more than what you have already seen, take a screen shot of that page.

I would also be happy if you PM'd me his username as I too can add him to my list.

Don't give up!!!

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

digital*ghost — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 01:22:52 GMT

It does sound like you've got a live one, so to speak. 😞

Unfortunately, not much more to add here - you may have a bit of a frustrating time ahead depending on how it plays out now that the buyer has won the case, but persistence will be the key. It might also be worthwhile reporting the buyer to eBay for suspected fraudulent activity, it might not do anything right now, but at least if the buyer continues with this kind of thing and other sellers take action or report suspect activity, their account will already have been noted.

http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/sell/report_problem.html

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

cq_tech — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 01:34:11 GMT

Thanks for passing on his user ID. What an interesting exercise. Having now studied his feedback at great length, it appears that his INRs are running at around 10 times the national average and I don't care who he is or where he lives, nobody is that unlucky. If it's as obvious to Paypal as it is to me that he's been rorting the system, I have no doubt that they have an open file on him and it's probably only a matter of time before he ultimately caught and prosecuted.

On that basis, I'm hoping now that Paypal will not force you to reimburse this mongrel from your own pocket and refund him by way of a discretionary payment from their own coffers. If it eventuates that this doesn't happen, by all means take the matter further by lodging complaints with the FOS and also the fraud squad in your own state. I wish you the very best of luck with this disgusting situation.

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

i-love-my-sheep — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 02:22:11 GMT

My apologies, I got the website wrong in my previous message. It should be .org not .com.

I looked at the feedback on that site and I have to say, I would fight this until the death. This buyer is clearly a scammer and you shouldn't have to give into a scammer. If the camera doesn't get sent back, I would definitely be reporting him to the police. Not only for fraud, but for theft as well.

Check this out for proof that this is a major scammer http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=king_kong_shopper&Dirn=Left+by&ref=home

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

digital*ghost — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 02:31:14 GMT

So.... They sell cameras n' stuff, I see. They've probably been pulling this stunt for a fair while, I'd say. 😞

Keep a watch on their listings, OP, just in case your camera makes a miracle reappearance.

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

aps1080 — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 02:31:07 GMT

Has anyone had much luck geting the Police involved ?

My understanding is they don't like to do it.

(Unless of course you mention the keywords "Terrorist supporter" ,

guaranteed to ruin anyone's year !)

Re: Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

digital*ghost — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 02:35:51 GMT

@aps1080 wrote:

Has anyone had much luck geting the Police involved ?

Cases like this need to be reported to the right department (Online Fraud). What will most likely happen, based on what I have observed in previous cases), is that once the report is filed, they will only take action if the reporting party is actually out the money or item. In other words, if they don't lose the funds via PayPal in any way, the police will consider no fraud against the seller to have taken place.

If PayPal refund the buyer's money and do not reimburse the seller, even after a FSO investigation etc, then the seller has to make a demand to the buyer for either the camera or funds. If the buyer doesn't send back the camera or repay the money within a certain amount of time, then they'll take action against the buyer.