topic Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back in Selling

Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

queenslander-one — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 07:39:56 GMT

I have today had a Paypal chargeback for an item said not recieved by Ebay/Paypal. Have advised the FOS as Paypal under Ebay's instruction have removed money from my account when I had Proof of Postage. (Photograph of item correctly addressed and Postmarked by my Postmaster. Waiting to hear the outcome.

Copy of my response to Ebay/Paypals removal of funds below.

Hi I sent the buyer a photo of the item posted at the Post office on the 5th Feb to his Paypal Address (Please see my Ebay emails sent) or can supply again to Ebay.

Also under Australian law item 101 of Australia post rules. 101 Articles carried by post to be taken to be Australia Post’s property.

Quote For the purpose of any legal proceeding or action in relation to an article carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the article shall be taken to be, while it is being carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the property of Australia Post.

In Australia, the seller is not legally responsible for delivery, only postage, therefore proof of postage is what is required Also under Paypal rules.

What is proof of shipment? • The date the item was sent; and

•An official acceptance by the shipper, such as a postmark or online status. (Status that shows the item was delivered is also acceptable.) It must also include either: •The recipient’s delivery address, showing at least the state, city and postcode (or international equivalent); or •A receipt from Australia Post showing at least the recipient’s suburb, city or postcode (or international equivalent).

If money is removed by Ebay from my Paypal account over this correctly sent item I WILL be lodging a complaint with the Financial Services Ombudsman. Ebay if it wants to provide an insurance service for so called non delivered items can but not at my expense.

Will see how I fair

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

crazyplacecostumes — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 08:00:43 GMT

I'll be waiting to see how you go.

You may wish to block out your buyer's name / address though 🙂

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

5kazam — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 08:56:02 GMT

Good on you for taking them on!!!

We all know that what eBay/PP are doing is illegal in Australia, and I'm pleased to see that someone is standing up to them.

I, too, will be interested as to how this pans out.

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

dylan11235813 — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 08:59:20 GMT

If it is for a chargeback I doubt you will have any issues with paypal. I have been told by paypal themselves that an image of the postmarked letter is suitable proof of lodgement, that is all paypal need for Australian sellers I believe. I would report the member to ebay and the police as well (if it is for unauthorized use of CC).

A chargeback has nothing to do with ebay, but they should remove the members account, not likely though. I had an ebay member commit fraud (against me and 2 other sellers) about a year ago now and they are still registered users.

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

5kazam — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 09:10:43 GMT

I think the difference is - eBay's policy states 'delivered to buyers address' (totally in contravention of Australian Law). PP's policy is proof of postage. Two completely different policies - you'd think they would have come up with something that backed each other!!

And OP has stated that eBay instructed PP to remove the funds. So it is an eBay thing. Maybe the use of the word 'chargeback' was not in the CC sense of the word.

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

dylan11235813 — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 09:33:22 GMT

Oh OK, I just assumed it was for a sprific chargeback for a credit card. Even though the eBay's policy states 'delivered to buyers address' this can still be considered met once handed to the postage service. As in deemed delivered, ebay just seem to be twisting the words around to suite them and handing it to the postal service is the same as handing it to the customer (who resides at the address)

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

phorum_junkie* — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 22:56:27 GMT

If it is a Paypal dispute you need proof of posting, a photo may be accepted but it is not actual proof without a tracking number that is in the system. If it is an ebay dispute you need proof of delivery and deemed delivery does not enter into it, ebay's policy applies and you have agreed to abide by that when you listed.

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

transport-posters — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 23:05:08 GMT

The exact same tthing happened to be at the end of January. Short version is that the seller claimed they did not receive the item and I had tracking showing delivery to their post code. eBay ruled in their favour and refunded them the item cost plus postage cost.

I appealed the case and just a few days ago the ruling was reversed in my favour and I'm to get the money back.

So there is hope!

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

queenslander — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 23:49:18 GMT

Good to see you back up Ebay at every oppertunity. But Ebay needs proof of delivery goes against Australian law.

Australia Post Policy

101 Articles carried by post to be taken to be Australia Post’s property

Quote

For the purpose of any legal proceeding or action in relation to an article carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the article shall be taken to be, while it is being carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the property of Australia Post.

In Australia, the seller is not legally responsible for delivery, only postage, therefore proof of postage is what is required.

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

5kazam — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 05:50:12 GMT

Quote : "If it is an ebay dispute you need proof of delivery and deemed delivery does not enter into it, ebay's policy applies and you have agreed to abide by that when you listed."

PJ you obviously haven't read the bit in eBay's policies that states 'in accordance with Australian Consumer Law'. That overrides anything else that eBay states in its policies.

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

clarry100 — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 06:18:40 GMT

Some time back we had a CC chargeback case opened against us. It was only for a small amount, around $10.

Now we use regular mail without tracking.

In discussion with the PayPal CSR he closed the case NO FAULT because of our very good PayPal account record.

This meant we did not lose our money but the buyer also got a refund out of it.

The CSR said he could not rule 100% in our favour simply because we had no proof we had actually handed the envelope to Aust Post.

Even tho our buyer had left POS feedback at the time.

He went on to explain that a photograph of the PO cancelled stamps showing the address of the buyer just as you have here would be sufficient proof to afford seller protection.

So I will be very interested in the outcome of this one as this is the first opportunity I have seen to test this out.

Please keep us posted.

PS. Under Australia Consumer Law (Sale of Goods Act) it is very clear that delivery to a buyer is deemed when the item is handed to the carrier. So all you need is some kind of proof you have done that. I think your photograph will stand up. Since ebay and PayPal Australia are bound by ACL then no matter what they might say in their rules they simply cannot override the law of the land.

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

5kazam — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 06:22:20 GMT

My kudo Clarry was for your last sentence. It is beyond me why some people seem to think eBay is above Australian Laws.

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

queenslander — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 07:19:41 GMT

Update to this afternoon.

No response from feebay only that they will look at my appeal. Nothing from Paypal as to why they removed money from account without my permission.

FSO acknowleged reciept and gave me a case number before close of business yesterday.

My Postmaster is also very interested as to how Ebay can develop and attempt to enforce their rules which are well outside the Australian one's.

Will keep all updated as I hear more.

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

queenslander-one — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 01:35:05 GMT

Further update this morning got the following.

Hi queenslander-one,

Recently, you appealed a case to eBay Customer Support. Unfortunately, we need a little more time to make a decision. You'll hear from us again soon.

Carlton Light Used Good Condition. Smaller size 24 inches Long 9 1/2 inches Wide
Item #	331459950621
Sale price:	AU $8.00
Quantity:	1
Sale date:	04-Feb-15 20:11:18 AEDST
Buyer:	gazra77
Case #:	5078780954
Case opened:	20-Feb-15 16:16:22 AEDST
Case closed:	26-Feb-15 12:01:42 AEDST
View purchased item

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

queenslander-one — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 07:07:54 GMT

Result. Ebay won't admit their proof of delivery is against Australian Laws however in this case. The following result.

Hi Martyn,

This is about the item not received case that your buyer, gazra77 has opened.

I have reviewed the transaction and I was able to see that the case was decided in the buyer’s favor. We will be granting your appeal for a one time courtesy. You can expect the refund within 5-10 business days.

Moving forward, please note that eBay and PayPal have different policies in reviewing cases. On item not received cases, we require valid tracking information to prove that the item was delivered to the correct address of the buyer. We do not consider proof of postage since it will only show that an item has been shipped; it will not show the item is delivered. I suggest that you send your items with tracking numbers to prevent similar situations.

Thank you for choosing eBay and I wish you luck on your future transactions.

Sincerely,

Catherine B. eBay Australia

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

joethenuts — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 07:24:49 GMT

sorry have i missed something could and i say could australia post lost the article ,dont they lose articled every day so the buyer might not of got it and australia post is not going to compensate to you over an a amount what ever that is surely its up to you to get the article to the buyer and its up to you to follow it up ala courier or post thats why you pay extra for insurance

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

joethenuts — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 07:53:06 GMT

TO the queenslander if i send you an article and you dont recieve it what would you do ..

what do you think should happen with all parties [seller,,buyer/ebay.paypal, aus-post.] when a buyer says it did not arive.

or anybody else to answere this who gets the 10 odd dollars for the goods and postage fee.

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

rkxfamily — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 09:13:03 GMT

Looks like a win for reason and logic - well done Queenslander and good on you for being that orgainised as to have photos of your post.

I find eBay's answer "I suggest that you send your items with tracking numbers" relatively smart-assed and a total non-match to the situation. No doubt it is A solution, but it is a ridiculous and unreasonable one with eBay items such as this, costing under $10.

The registraion fee, postage (assuming cheapest poss large letter) and envelope would be $4.55, the eBay fee $0.99 and the PayPal fee $0.55 so that would leave to the seller $2.61 from a $10 sale.

Ridiculous!!

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

cq_tech — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 13:09:04 GMT

If it happens again and eBay refuse to accept your physical proof of postage, remind them that their policy is illegal and is therefore null and void under Australian Law and has no standing, regardless of what it says, then lodge a written complaint to the ACCC and set them onto eBay for blatantly ignoring the Sale Of Goods Act and Australian Consumer Law. I for one am fed up with eBay's blatant disregard for our laws of the land and it's about time that they were hauled over the coals for constantly doing so. Maybe a few million dollars in fines will force them to change their petty little minds.

BTW, they didn't grant you a "one-time" courtesy out of the goodness of their hearts, you know. They did so because they know full well they're in the wrong and don't have a legal leg to stand on, and simply don't want you making a fuss.

Re: Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

joethenuts — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 20:54:48 GMT

fair enouth but if the seller has proof he sent article and the buyer says they did not get it who should be out of pocket,,the seller, the buyer,paypal, ebay,or aus post,

you all go about the law but answere this problem its a letter no tracking and not registered mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

remember 1000s of letters and articles get lost thru the post every year