Theism vs Athesim

[k0llectable5]

I wonder are we allowed to have a discussion on this topic.  (My mum did teach me the three golden rules of conversation but I'm choosing to ignore her teaching as I find those three topics to be most intersting, important, relevent and necessary to discuss) Especially religion. I do ask though could we please try to be tolerant of peoples views and opinions.  

ITS ONLY A DISCUSSION AND WE ARE ALL ADULTS SO PLEASE KEEP PERSONAL INSULTS, HATE COMMENTS AND THE LIKE OUT OF THIS THREAD.  IF YOU'RE NOT INTERESTED OR CANT HANDLE THIS TYPE OF DISCUSSION YOU DONT HAVE TO GET INVOLVED.  I"M SO INTERESTED TO HEAR PEOPLES VIEWS. 

So whats your view.

[k0llectable5]

The Old Testament is kinda in 3 parts.  The books can be broadly divided into the Pentateuch which tells how God chose Israel to be his chosen people the history books telling the history of the Israelites from their conquest of Canaan to their defeat and exile in Babylon; the poetic and "Wisdom" books dealing, in various forms, with questions of good and evil in the world; and the books of the biblical prophets, warning of the consequences of turning away from God. (quote from Wiki)

The Isreal the OT speaks of is not the modern day Isreal. Isreal in the OT was a person.  So I think some were there at the time and others were not. 

[*crikey*mate*]

uh huh Freshwater. I too have read the Bible from an academic perspective, used a few books, talked to a few people "from both sides of the fence" in order to interpret it, it's history and given consideration to the relevant cultures and laws of the time.

The thing that makes the most sense to me is the view of the priest in The Da Vinci Code - the one who got murdered. That Science and Religion are the same thing. That all religions are man's way of explaining and understanding that which Science is not yet able to.

In short that Belief Systems are the hypothesis' of Science.

I do believe that there is a God, but that this is the name that "man" has given to the force or whatever it is that got this whole shebang going and keeps it going. Just as each belief system attributed/s specific things to their own "God/s".

[k0llectable5]

Well I've only ever read the Bible as a layman.  And still havent really gotten from cover to cover. I dont know Greek or Hebrew and am limited to the interpretations I have read. I like the NIV cos it's a bit easier to read than the King James. But I spent most of my time reading the King James version.   TBH it's not the Bible though that has given me my faith.  Believe it or not  it's Atheism and Athiests that have played a big part in strenghthening my faith over the years. 

[*crikey*mate*]

what explanation is there though for which belief system is correct? Are the Aborigines wrong? The Egyptians? Buddhists?

Interesting how our Laws reflect Christian values and beliefs. (Yes, we even study religion and Christianity, including it's origins at Law School and even followed Jewish property ownership and possession through the ages when learning about the foundations and history of Property Law)

I was a bit surprised at how pervasive religion and belief systems really are.

[*crikey*mate*]

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@secondhand-wonderland wrote:

Well I've only ever read the Bible as a layman.  And still havent really gotten from cover to cover. I dont know Greek or Hebrew and am limited to the interpretations I have read. I like the NIV cos it's a bit easier to read than the King James. But I spent most of my time reading the King James version.   TBH it's not the Bible though that has given me my faith.  Believe it or not  it's Atheism and Athiests that have played a big part in strenghthening my faith over the years. 

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I went to Catholic School, but never read the Bible from beginning to end, just knew different passages as they were taught to us iykwim. I only actually made it a goal to read the Bible as one would any other book, and to study it in the same manner as a result of a thread here on CS about 4 years ago, now.

I just thought it was time that I knew what it said without any overt bias iykwim.

I do believe that I have experienced 2, maybe 3 miracles, but also accept that this is the name I have given them, simply because Science cannot explain them yet. I also believe that I have had a few prayers answered, not all in the way that I expected or asked though.

Most recently, I prayed for about a year for a certain event to occur, eventually it did occur about a year ago, but **bleep**, I don't like it now that it has been answered.... Now I pray to reverse what I prayed for initially LOL

[darksideofthemoon]

Absolutely dot on my*mum, I couldn't agree more in all you say

[k0llectable5]

what explanation is there though for which belief system is correct? Are the Aborigines wrong? The Egyptians? Buddhists?

Interesting how our Laws reflect Christian values and beliefs. (Yes, we even study religion and Christianity, including it's origins at Law School and even followed Jewish property ownership and possession through the ages when learning about the foundations and history of Property Law)

That is a good question.  I guess being Christian means following as closely as one can in the footsteps of Christ. One concept that really hits home for me from the New Testament is this quote from Matthew chapter 7

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it (Matthew 7:13-14)

I interperet this as the path you have chosen to walk  through life on.  To me Jesus's teachings seem righteous, and try to steer us away from doing wrong, harming others, loving our neighbour, honoring our mother and father and most importantly worshipping God.  And this is the bit I have a hard time with and by no means base my faith around it but if  we we can live like this we will have everlasting life in Gods kingdom. It's about the rules of conduct through life. And I'm not saying that Athiests are bad people, but I think the reason why our law system reflects Christian values is because these values are the right way to go.  

I dont know if the Aborigines are wrong.  I guess before white settlement they dealt with "crimes" in the best way they knew how and in the way that had been taught to them by their elders. As far as I know punishments for crimes could be very brutal, but it obviously worked for them seeing as they were thriving when white man colonialised Australia.  But they were tribal white man was "civilised" he was technologically more advanced (in comparison to the Aboriginal ie: he had guns, ships, cartography etc) his idea was exploration, discovery colonialisation. Not to say the Aboriginals were dumb, they were probably much smarter in alot of ways than white man but they were nomadic and their lives were centred around hunting and gathering  and maintaining the land etc. (Really though I am generalizing and I really dont know what it was like for people back then I can only go by what the history books teach and I am skeptical at best with alot of them) But I honestly believe white man came with good intentions and the laws they had been following for over a millenium seemed to aid the the "civilisation" process.

As for the other two you mentioned, I just dont have time to go on anymore with everything I need to do today. I am enjoying this discussion and value everyones input so far though and I'll be back later to reply to some of your other points. 

[id-to-post-anything]

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@my*mum wrote:

Who wrote the Old Testament?

It wasn't the people "there at the time"

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Hi My*mum

as a Jew, we believe that most of the Old Testament was written at the time, by the people who were there, BUT inspired by G-d

When Moses when up on Mount Sinai, G-d told him to write down everything that had happened up to that point in history word for word. G-d spoke and Moses wrote

After that time, G-d continued to tell Moses what to write, which he did "as the story unfolded" so to speak.

There is a question who wrote the last few verses about Moses dying. Some commentaries say G-d told Moses what do write and he wrote it with tears in his eyes. Others say Joshua, who took over from him, wrote the last few line

In either case, it was written with divine inspiration, as it happened

(I specifically mean the first 5 books ie the Pentatuach)

[*crikey*mate*]

Hello id to post.

I'd love to hear more about your beliefs. I have had very little to do with the Jewish faith, but did have a Jewish student for about 4 years, and got to know her and her mum reasonably well, so learned a few things about their beliefs...

Please let me say here, that any questions that I ask are not intended to dismiss or devalue yours or any other belief system.

OK, Moses was directed to write things down by G-d (why do you miss out the "o", is it because you have a different name for the Christian entity?)

Those writings are the same as they appear today, and have always been written down, is that right? I mean, there were no periods of "word of mouth" and the events passed down to different generations (I am thinking here of how Aboriginal beliefs were communicated through art, dance and verbal recollections.)

Is there any allowance for or consiuderation of that things may have been accidentally changed during translation, or perhaps intentionallly when the Bible was collated?

[id-to-post-anything]

My*Mum

I am always very happy to explain our beliefs.

Firstly, we believe that one is not allowed to erase the name of G-d. If you write it in full, it can be erased. We leave out the O, so its not written in full and therefore erasing it is not really erasing His name.

In terms of the actual Old Testament, what we have today is absolutely exactly what was originally written. We have no issues with translations as it has always, and still is, written only in the original Hebrew. Someone reading a widely availabe translation will always go back to the Hebrew if there is a discrepancy.

When a new scroll is writtten, the Scribe has to copy it exactly from another scroll. He cannot do it off by heart etc. Letter by letter must be copied. Once a scroll is in use in the synagogue, if the reader sees a mistake or a letter has disintigrated or been damaged etc that scroll cannot be used until it is fixed.  In this way, we have the absolute exact same text as the original.