Opposition baffled by 'drastic' anti-terror plans that could see 10-year-olds held without charge

[davidc4430]

Opposition baffled by 'drastic' anti-terror plans that could see 10-year-olds held without charge

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-06/opposition-baffled-by-drastic-anti-terror-plans/9024990

Whats happened to our elected members? they pass laws without even reading what they are passing?

can they point out any 10 year old terror suspects in australia in the past that had to be let go?

now i'm not saying their might not some time be a child of a person under investigation for terror related suspicion that needs to be interviewed but held in jail for 2 weeks?

[chameleon54]

We have already seen 10 yo. Australian born children of islamist extremists holding severed heads of opposition fighters. Unfortunately kids that have been exposed to that level of violence, horror and extreme views are going to be pretty damaged. It may be unsafe to simply let them back into the custody of the extremist muslim community in Australia. They may have to be detained for a period while authorities try to find a better alternative that is in the best interests of the child.

This another example of where things are not all nice and clean and tidy the way the city centric, PC crowd imagine life to be.. Unfortunately drastic circumstances often require less than perfect solutions. 

[davidc4430]

um, those children holding the severred heads, were NOT in australia.

i said IN australia.

yes, over in the area where we are killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people there are cases of children being abused by adults in many ways.

but so far i cant think of any cases here in australia that would warrant being held in detention of some kind for 2 weeks.

maybe the day will come.

but the minister saying 'what if a child of 11 was planning a terror attack?'

well what if a 9 year old was?

why stop at 10? if your planning a terror attack age shouldnt matter should it?

funny, we wont let you drive a car until your 16 but you can plan a terror attack at 10.

[johcaschro]

Our casual acceptance of terrorism measures endangers liberty

Katharine Murphy

" . . . When the prime minister in quite unguarded fashion talks about the benefits of mass surveillance through CCTV, combined with a new national face matching database, to use his words – “the power of being able to identify, to be looking out for and identify a person suspected of being involved in terrorist activities, walking into an airport, walking into a sporting stadium” – things have changed.

Turnbull denies new facial recognition measures amount to 'mass surveillance'

We should not pretend otherwise. All the Churchillian rhetoric, while well intentioned and fashioned to soothe, insults the intelligence of the electorate.

We also need to acknowledge that the change to our way of life is all in one direction: enhancing the powers and reach of the national security state, bit by bit, increment by increment. . . "

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/oct/07/casual-acceptance-terrorism-measures-endanger...

[chameleon54]

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@davidc4430 wrote:

um, those children holding the severred heads, were NOT in australia.

i said IN australia.

yes, over in the area where we are killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people there are cases of children being abused by adults in many ways.

but so far i cant think of any cases here in australia that would warrant being held in detention of some kind for 2 weeks.

maybe the day will come.

but the minister saying 'what if a child of 11 was planning a terror attack?'

well what if a 9 year old was?

why stop at 10? if your planning a terror attack age shouldnt matter should it?

funny, we wont let you drive a car until your 16 but you can plan a terror attack at 10.

---

Yes David I did note that you said IN Australia, but I understand those kids are now orphaned Australian children lost in another country. It is quite possible that a grandparent or auntie or uncle in Australia could decide to return them here and currently there would be nothing to stop them.. If the relatives where known muslim extremists the children could be stopped at our borders on their return home, then what ?  .

As it is now, the authorities would not have the right to remove the children from the situation as they would not have actually been harmed by their accompanying adults. They could easily be hidden in the Australian extremist muslim community where they become further radicilised and trained, presenting a huge risk on Australian soil. It would be much better for those kids to be removed from that enviroment where they could be offered the chance to undergo physcological councilling and de-radicalisation programmes. In order to do this they may need to be forcefully detained for awhile.

This is just one current, real life example of where the powers may be needed. We know this could very easily happen tommorow. There may well be other unforseen examples of the need to forcefully detain young children, under the terrorist laws. It may be rare, but that does not mean we should not be prepared for it.

[chameleon54]

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@johcaschro wrote:

Our casual acceptance of terrorism measures endangers liberty

Katharine Murphy

" . . . When the prime minister in quite unguarded fashion talks about the benefits of mass surveillance through CCTV, combined with a new national face matching database, to use his words – “the power of being able to identify, to be looking out for and identify a person suspected of being involved in terrorist activities, walking into an airport, walking into a sporting stadium” – things have changed.

Turnbull denies new facial recognition measures amount to 'mass surveillance'

We should not pretend otherwise. All the Churchillian rhetoric, while well intentioned and fashioned to soothe, insults the intelligence of the electorate.national security

We also need to acknowledge that the change to our way of life is all in one direction: enhancing the powers and reach of the state, bit by bit, increment by increment. . . "

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/oct/07/casual-acceptance-terrorism-measures-endanger...

---

Its like the old question of how to boil a frog without it jumping from the pan. You start cold and slowly heat. I have noticed dramatic changes, regards our cival liberties and freedoms over the past couple of decades. In business we need a licence for all of the things we once just got on and did.

When I strarted on the farm, we where fairly unencumbered. Now I need a licence to drive my front end loader and forklift. I need an escort vehicle with flashing lights and signs to take my machinery across a remote country back road from one farm to another. All machinery now has to have a number plate and motor registration.  I need a firearms licence, chemical users licence, and a special shed with signs and bunding. I need a licence for my dams and licences on my bores with $3000 meters to measure use. I need low flow bypasses for dams, and an irrigation licence to use the water. I need to fill in forms and return them regularly to the govermnment agency that monitors water use.

I need to pass accreditation to manage and sell stock. Every animal has to be tagged with registered tag and registered brand. I need to fill in pages of declarations and health certificates every time I sell stock and update the central commputer system as to where they went. I need to attend a course and have a licence to class my own sheeps wool, again with registered brand. I need accreditation to use vetinary chemicals, some of which are permenantly recorded by my vet. My shearing machines need to be nearly new to meet OHSW requirements and trucks over 15 years old will not be accepted in some grain delivery programmes. My grain truck needs to be tarped and only tip trucks are accepted at some sites. I have to wear a hard hat and fluro vest when delivering grain. Children are not allowed to leave the truck. My seed is owned by the big companies and in some cases I have to sell my grain back to them. I need to be registered to sell rams and all rams have to be vet checked and tested.

All of these registrations and licences are accompanied by offices of public servants, regular renewal notices and of course THE ANNUAL FEES !!!! to pay for it all.

I farm near the urban fringe and there are people peering over my fence, regularly reporting what I do to the authorities. The authorities come and check what I,m doing and give me very good feedback. Several months later more reports are made. Eventually the authorities put a note on my file to ignore the unsubstantiated reports from ignorant urban dwellers. As I drive a large ute with farm dogs, toolboxes etc. and heavy trailers, I stand out from the crowd of city commuters. I regularly get stopped by the police who are just looking for any little thing to get their report numbers up. I,m seen as easy pickings. Tradies have the same problem.

There are more and more public servants employed to check on what we do. The police have become much more aggresive and pedantic.   Our personal cival liberties and our businesses are being strangled by red tape. Eventually we will choke ourselves to the point that nothing gets done or produced here anymore.

[janeababe]

chameleon54 wrote:

This is just one current, real life example of where the powers may be needed. We know this could very easily happen tommorow. There may well be other unforseen examples of the need to forcefully detain young children, under the terrorist laws. It may be rare, but that does not mean we should not be prepared for it

Absolutely agree!!

Currently, its a loop hole that needs to be mended before it becomes extensively utilized.

David, while under 12yr olds might not be planning and excuting terrorist activities IN Australia at present, they sure as heck are planning and implementing break and enters, store theft, car theft, animal cruelty, assault, bullying and harassment at high levels!

It wont be long.............................

[davidc4430]

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janeababe wrote:

David, while under 12yr olds might not be planning and excuting terrorist activities IN Australia at present, they sure as heck are planning and implementing break and enters, store theft, car theft, animal cruelty, assault, bullying and harassment at high levels!

It wont be long.............................

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your absolutly correct, all these things are happening and can be delt with under laws allready in place.

but they are not terror related crimes, this new law is about terror acts not normal crime.

if we are to make new laws for crimes that may happen 'one day' then dont stop at 10, make it any age.

40 years ago the idea 10 year olds would be stealing cars, break and enter, shoplifting, killing animals for fun, assulting people and all the other crimes that are now seen as 'normal' for children, then we should have introduced lock em up throw away the key for them back then.

who knows what the world will look like in say 20 years from now, maybe kids as young as 5 will be part of terror cells here in australia, lets just set the laws to cover that now.

what normally happens is we wait until a crime becomes apparent then create a law for it as we are not able to see into the future.

kinda gets back to where this thread started, we will all need to carry 'papers, and hand em over on demand to 'law enforcement officers' regardless of us doing anything wrong.

you think that wont happen? just look at what 'big brother' is doing now, cameras everywhere (cept where crimes are actually happening), locking people up without charge (or legal representative), putting them on far away islands in prisons.

the future looks bleak if you stop and look at how we are moving now.

[myoclon1cjerk]

Jackboot Dutton must be smiling from ear to ear.

[davidc4430]

i'm waiting for the police to be privatised.

then we will see citizens getting killed by error by under trained, over weaponized security (police) likes going on in the USA.

shoot first ask questions later

wont happen? well politicians have sold everything else.