Ethics on hand-delivering when postage is paid?

[roslyngal]

Hi, Buyer here wanting Seller views.

I prefer postage (to drop off) since I live on a busy road and risk of parcel theft is moderate to high. My postman knows my secret spot to hide parcels, and the system works well. If I’ve arranged drop off with a seller, i describe my special spot. That works well, too.

Heres what happened this week:

I paid (high) postage for an item. I contact seller after a week since it hasn’t arrived. Seller says they hand-delivered it, and propped it up (visible from the street) against my door. So pocketed the postage.

No sign of it by the time I came home. I strongly suspect it was stolen, but I only have the Seller’s word that it was hand-delivered at all. Either way, she’s been quick to accuse me of lying that I don’t have the item. 

Whats the right way way to go from here? As far as eBay (or PayPal) is concerned, is there some obligation to post an item, if that’s what’s offered and paid for on the auction page? If you (the Seller) choose to hand-deliver instead (with no communication) do you take the risk since you’re acting outside the agreed process? Interested to hear views, thanks.

[lyndal1838]

When you pay for postage it means that you have paid the seller to have the item delivered to you.   I cannot see anything really wrong with the seller hand delivering the item although there can be unexpected ramifications as you have seen.

I had a similar thing happen when a seller delivered 2 pillows and left them in the doorway.....it was raining and the doorway can get quite wet if the rain comes against the front of the house.  I also have a safe drop box that is weatherproof and hidden from view so I was annoyed that the seller had decided to just leave the items.

Just open a dispute for item not received....your seller will lose as they have no proof of postage.

[wide-world-of-stamps]

They still used petrol to deliver, so didn't pocket all the postage.

However, they should have asked you a couple of questions before dropping it off:

1. Is is OK with you for them to do so.

2. Do you have a preferred place to leave the items.

Since you don't have the items, open a dispute as lyndal already mentioned.

You will receive a refund, and the seller may learn a lesson the hard way.

[whiznumber6]

Interesting one - if an actual postage service is being offered (ie: Australia Post satchel, etc), and the item is personally delivered by the seller instead, they don't really have a way of proving that the item was delivered (unless they take a photo of it on your doorstep). I reckon they'd probably lose an INR case on the basis that there's no Australia Post tracking number when an Australia Post service was both offered and paid for.

If "Standard delivery (1 to 6 business days)" is the option being offered (as opposed to "Australia Post standard delivery"), that doesn't specify any actual postage service - no mention whatsoever of Australia Post, so theoretically a drop-off by the seller would be covered, so long as it's within the specified time-frame. But again, there's no proof of delivery, which would still make an INR case against them be decided in your favour.

As to "pocketing the postage" - as previously pointed out, they're expending time and effort in getting the item there: packing the item, the time it takes them to get from their address to yours, petrol, etc. Depending on the amount being charged, I doubt they'd be making any sort of windfall profit.

But yes, contacting the buyer and offering the option of personal delivery would solve most of the problems, and would take hardly any time or effort.

[digital*ghost]

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@roslyngal wrote:

As far as eBay (or PayPal) is concerned, is there some obligation to post an item, if that’s what’s offered and paid for on the auction page? 

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Leaving aside what would happen in a dispute for a moment, I believe that legally, yes, they are obliged to post. (I think - I am not a lawyer, I am just trying to interpret what I do know and apply it to this scenario, so the following needs to be taken with that in mind, i.e. that it's a mildly educated guess). 

The seller acts as the buyer's agent - current law (in a very brief nutshell) states that the seller acts on the buyer's behalf, and that as long as they fulfil the order according to the buyer's instruction (which in the case of online purchases, is deemed to be whichever postage method the buyer selects, or requests), then they are not liable for loss etc. (Legally, delivery to the buyer is deemed to occur when a seller hands a package over to the carrier, if those arrangements were made).

If a buyer does not stipulate a specific postage instruction, the seller is obliged to select an appropriate (safe) delivery method. If a seller ignores the buyer's postage instruction and / or does not select an appropriate delivery method, then liability actually does go back to the seller for things like loss. 

So, in this case, a specific delivery method was stipulated, but not used. The only bone of contention is that (presumably) the loss occurred after delivery, not during, however if it were a court case, this may be moot due to the first point of the seller ignoring delivery instruction. 

In general, I see both sides of the equation when talking about sellers hand-delivering items, I understand the point of it taking time and so on, and that some costs are still incurred, and I don't tell others never to do it, but I would never do it myself - I feel like visiting someone's property without their knowledge or permission, even if it is for 30 seconds, is not why I get a delivery address for postage of an item. Years ago I had a buyer that literally lived a 2 minute walk away from me, and I contemplated just dropping it off (the post office was a longer walk away, lol), but in the end I opted not to, it just didn't feel right to me, plus I'm socially awkward, and would have felt like some kind of bumbling spy walking past their house and dropping something in their letterbox or what have you. 

[countessalmirena]

@roslyngal,,

If the specific postage/delivery method was not stated or requested, then hand delivery would not (in my view) be against the terms of the agreement.

If the postage method was stated in the listing, and a different method was used, in many cases it would not be an issue. If, for instance, the seller used express instead of standard, or used DHL instead of TNT, or sent in a box instead of a satchel, it would be unusual for the buyer to say, "No, no, no, that's not the delivery method that I chose."

(Beware the use of a satchel instead of a box, however.)

Using a less expensive or less feature-rich postage method than that selected and paid for by the buyer would be a breach, and is a certain way to annoy buyers.

There are also circumstances in which a more feature-rich and/or expensive method (e.g., add-on of signature on delivery) can annoy the buyer, though. This is because it requires the buyer to be home (when it is entirely possible that they aren't home at the time of delivery), or requires that the buyer answer the door to the courier - which can be problematic when a buyer has limited mobility and may not make it to the door before the courier leaves the missed delivery note and stomps back down the steps/driveway/pathway to his van and drives off.

I do not personally have an issue with a seller hand-delivering items to me. It's irrelevant to me whether it's a postman, courier or other individual doing the delivery.   (I don't mean to decry or minimise anyone's personal stance on whether a seller should hand-deliver... and if a seller's hand-delivering an item that won't fit in the letterbox, that seller really should contact the buyer to ask if they have a safe-drop area. The seller must not increase the possibility of an item being stolen if he/she just puts it in clear view of the street.)     However, if the item never arrives, there's a problem - and that, I think, is really the underlying issue of greatest importance in this case! How is the seller to prove to either eBay or PayPal that the item was delivered? Under the T&Cs of both eBay and PayPal, the seller would appear not to have any such acceptable proof.

It would be monumentally stupid of a seller to hand-deliver an expensive item without having made arrangements with the buyer beforehand, such as permission, location of safe-drop area, etc. The seller should also take a photo of the item in the safe-drop area. It's still a more problematic situation, even with these precautions, in terms of seller protection, because if something goes wrong (or even if the buyer merely lies about not receiving the item), the seller won't have the required proof of postage, let alone proof of delivery.

I wouldn't put it as sellers pocketing the postage if a seller hand-delivers rather than posts (in most cases). Some buyers will have a different view, and I acknowledge that. In most instances I would expect that the cost to the seller could well be higher than the postage I paid, all things being taken into account...

Anyway, if the seller did as they say, and hand-delivered it, this is going to be their loss. You have eBay's Money Back Guarantee, so all you need do is open the dispute on the basis that you haven't received the item. The seller will not be able to prove either postage or delivery. Voilà - you'll refund a full refund.

[redders_60]

For many years I've had a regular buyer that always insisted on combined postage for multiple items, but no delivery.  I happily posted at the best possible local rate price, but felt she was wasting her money on postage  As the address is only a few suburbs away.

Many times; Via Email;  I told this elderly lady I drove past her address on a regular basis & would happily drop off her parcels for free.

Some years back she invited me for tea when she asked me to dropoff her large parcel as she was recovering from surgery & unable to get to the door in time for the PO delivery person. I now have had a new friend for more than 5 years now!

She sells on Ebay & has more mobility issues than I; So even trusts me to take her ebay parcels to her local PO!

I think dropoff is acceptable via mutually consenting parties when postcost is waived (or reduced if the seller is going out of their way to deliver); But in your instance this was not the case & the parcel has gone astray. Maybe the seller's heart was in the right place? But as you do not have the goods you purchased; You are in the right to open a claim against the seller. I'd not ever dropoff without buyer consent!

[the_dutchess_of_dork]

I agree with everyone regarding the refund.  Regardless of delivery method, you have not received the item.

It was remiss of the seller not to contact you prior to delivery.  Had they done so you could have expressed your concerns regarding the safety of parcels left at your door and made appropriate arrangements had you been willing to accept personal delivery.

However, with regards to the cost of personal delivery versus delivery by AP or courier, I generally don't have a problem with the seller retaining the postage cost ... providing it is reasonable.  The only exception would be if the postage was particularly expensive.  For example, if someone was selling a bulky or weighty item and the postage reflected the cost to send it anywhere within Australia.  I would still expect to pay the seller something for personal delivery but wouldn't be thrilled if it cost $50 or $60 from the next suburb.  I think in those circumstances the seller should definitely discount the postage cost for personal delivery.

Last year I purchased a camera from a seller about 5km away and was pleased to have it personally delivered.  I have also occasionally purchased smaller items from Gumtree and when sellers are kind enough to deliver (because I don't drive), I always pay extra for delivery.

I guess the final consideration is whether buyers and / or sellers want anyone coming to their home.  If not then the trading partner should respect those wishes, even if they live just around the corner.

[justkidzbiz]

I have standard delivery as the postage. I once hand delivered the item to a letterbox which could in NO WAY be accessed by someone, the inside of the letterbox was inside the actual premise.

the next day the buyer sends an email saying "where is my item".  Knowing full well she had received, she was **bleep**ed because she paid "postage", which was actually "standard delivery". So I refunded her postage and changed the postage section to pick up so that she could not open a dispute, as this was wha she threatened. Hence to say, she went onto my special list!

[springyzone]

I used to sell, back in the early days well before paypal & buyer protection etc.

There was one occasion when we wrapped a small, breakable item. Postage on it was very cheap but I was afraid it might break so when I was out shopping in that direction (I lived about 25 mins away), I checked out their mail box (which was locked) & popped it in. I sent them a message to explain why. I  did feel a bit hesitant about it, mind you, but more anxious about breakage.

They were rapt though and said it was the best service ever.

But that was then & this is now and my views have modified. Had it been a big parcel, even back then I would not have been happy to just leave it on a doorstep. And with high postage posts I would have been doubly doubtful about doing it. As it was, we already had the stamps (unfranked of course) on the little parcel, so the buyer would have seen we genuinely had it ready for postage & weren't trying to make a profit.

These days, if a buyer paid for postage, I would post it, in exactly the way outlined in the ad. One of the reasons would be so that I had proof of tracking and delivery. The other reason is I am more aware now that some buyers could see it as an invasion of privacy or as an attempt to scam postage costs. Why take that risk if you don't need to? These days I would always ask first, but only if an item had been listed as pick up as an option.

But my main aim would be to cover myself as a seller & not leave myself vulnerable to buyer claims if I could help it.

As a buyer, these days, if I did not receive an item, I would open a claim, no matter what a seller said.