Hypothetical INR Situation (for self Education purposes)

[clarry100]

We have a very good and trusted returning customer who buys lots of stuff from us on a regular basis.

She always pays promptly and leaves glowing POS FB.

Messages are always warm & friendly.

Just a pleasure to have and we would never want to lose such a customer, they are really too hard to find.

We always includes an "extras" package with each order and quite often next order she is buying some of these too.

She orders enough each time that we always use C&S 500gm satchels lodged over the counter but without paying for extra cover.

Now for the hypothetical bit...

So... what happens if one of these parcels never arrives. It's not uncommon from what I read on these boards.

I'm pretty sure PayPal protection would be in place as we have used a fully tracked sending method. So this means she would be refunded in the case of a formal INR claim? But do we lose our money? I hope not.

But we would not really want to go down the official INR track maybe. After all who (either of us) wants a INR case on the record if it's not really needed.

We would, of course, wish to replace her order as she is such a valued and trusted customer. I think she would prefer replacement rather than refund anyway. But we don't wish to lose our $$$ either.

So what would be the best way to handle such a situation so that neither of us lose out?

Do we advise her to open an INR case thru PayPal and get a refund?

Then we just send out another order after the claim is proceesd?

Or what are other options? Buy the additional cover each time and claim back thru Aust Post if it happened?

Or am I misunderstanding something about the INR claims process?

Just thought I'd throw this one out there for general comment and mainly for my own education really.

[harley_babes_hoard]

I think it largely depends on who you get at paypal should if it should go that way. Some will tell you because it was a satchel and there is no address or post code confirmed in tracking you are not covered. You might be better sending as a normal parcel at least with a post coded receipt. If you lose the INR dispute yes paypal will take the money from your account.

I didn't see the C&S part. Yep you would be covered.

[van_werkhoven]

As a buyer my preferred option would be for you to keep your original money, and send out a replacement parcel for free, so you have sent double my order, but keep my money for one of them. No paypal involvment nececary.

[harley_babes_hoard]

as a seller you are better off refunding.

[stampdog42]

The new (from Nov 1st) ebay buyer protection covers buyers if items don't arrive, so as seller you are now responsible for items lost by Australia Post. As a seller (not this ID) I've always refunded buyers whose items are lost, unless I've very good reason to reckon they're lying to me (only had one buyer like that, and I won my paypal case).  Most of my items are singletons, so I can't replace them if they are lost, otherwise I would replace.

As regards buying Australia Post insurance, work out whether it's cheaper to self insure, bearing in mind that they won't pay up if they believe they've delivered and (sometimes) only pay the cost of your goods to you, not the amount your buyer has paid.

[stampdog42]

To clarify, paypal does not cover you for claims made through ebay

https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full?country.x=AU&locale.x=en_AU#Schedule_1_PayP...

S5.1 The PayPal Seller Protection Policy will not apply to a transaction if:

....
j.  The buyer files a claim through a buyer protection policy other than the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy; 

...

(Happy to be proved wrong on this one, if someone else has a different interpretation.)

[digital*ghost · Accepted solution]

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@clarry100 wrote:

So what would be the best way to handle such a situation so that neither of us lose out?

Do we advise her to open an INR case thru PayPal and get a refund?

Then we just send out another order after the claim is proceesd?

Or what are other options? Buy the additional cover each time and claim back thru Aust Post if it happened?

Or am I misunderstanding something about the INR claims process?

---

If you have proof of postage, the buyer is not eligible for protection and won't get a refund via PayPal, plus if they did get a refund, and you then replace the purchase, they would have the items and a refund. 

The only possible benefit to advising your customer to claim via PayPal is that you would 99% sure win the dispute, thus meaning any defect caused could be removed, but it would be a pointless exercise for the buyer.

As mentioned above, if the claim is handled via eBay, proof of delivery will be required, so unless the tracking info says delivered, the buyer would win, but you wouldn't want to let it get to that stage because if a refund is forced via an eBay case, it will count as a case closed without seller resolution (you're allowed 2 or 0.3% of those in any given evaluation period before you're automatically relegated to "Below Standard" and account restrictions can be applied).

Your best bet is to probably refund or replace, then deal with the rest independently; i.e. lodge a claim with Australia Post - without extra cover, they still have up to $50 (discretionary) compensation, so if the package was never delivered, you have a good chance of getting them to pay out (eventually). C&S used to have up to $100 compensation without the SOD option, but I'm not sure if that still applies. 

[tall_bearded01]

I do not agree.

Yes the eBay policy uses the word “delivered/delivery” but it don’t define the meaning of these words for the purposes of the policy. As such they have their ordinary meaning as defined in relevant legislation, namely, the Sales of Goods Act, which stipulates that the item is said to have been delivered on being handed to the carrier.

That is, for the purposes of the policy, the item will have to be found as delivered, not on receipt of confirmation by carrier that it has reached its destination. Instead proof of postage is proof of delivery.

Now I accept that, in the initial stages, the eBay dispute resolution staff, as did the PayPal before them, may have some difficulty in getting their heads around the concept of deemed delivery, however after Consumer Affairs starts receiving complaints about how eBay is interpreting its policy, they will soon receive a “suggestion” that they may want to reword it so that it can be better understood by consumers, especially those who doesn’t have an accounting or legal background.

[digital*ghost]

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@tall_bearded01 wrote:

I do not agree.

Yes the eBay policy uses the word “delivered/delivery” but it don’t define the meaning of these words for the purposes of the policy. As such they have their ordinary meaning as defined in relevant legislation, namely, the Sales of Goods Act, which stipulates that the item is said to have been delivered on being handed to the carrier.

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However it may apply, though, the problem will be getting sellers to risk fighting a case when the definition of delivery is not made 100% clear. 

Fight and strike someone who takes "delivered to the buyer's address" to mean it was literally delivered at the buyer's address, you lose and only get one more chance before you can be suspended from selling. 

[tall_bearded01]

Yes that is a problem for some, but not for me. That is, it really doesn’t worry me if eBay suspend my account, because I’m not reliant on the income generated by it.

Therefore, if they decide to exercise the punitive provisions as contained in the policy, then this then opens the door for a further complaint to both Consumer Affairs and the ACCC for unconscionable conduct which then places eBay in a potentially no win situation.

It works this way.

EBay could argue that the policy results in the seller agreeing to contract out of their deemed delivery rights without expressly saying so. This will in itself invalidate the whole policy as consumers cannot be induced to contract out of a right confirmed by statute by stealth.

On the other hand eBay would have to agree that there is no contract out of provision in the policy, which means they would have to concede deemed delivery applies; which in terns means an admission that they have taken punitive action against the sellers simply because they, eBay, misinterpreted their own policy.

When it comes to consumer complaints it doesn’t get much better than that.

In fact,I have already laid the groundwork for such complaint, by writing to eBay requesting they advise as to whether deemed delivery applies, to which I recieved the usual garbled giberish, which has no been safely filed away.