Why block Indian flights instead of USA flights ?

[dontmissthese]

Current figures:
USA 98k cases per million 1764 deaths per million.
India 13k cases per million 142 deaths per million.

[domino-710]

Not exactly sure of the question - if they hold Australian Citizenship - they are Australians.

[rogespeed]

Well said !

[rogespeed]

Vaccines do not work instantly as thay are not antidotes  , however would be good as part of any pre-departure covid free procedure ,  to ensure future protection when the now hapless expatriats ( who had a year to return ) emerge after a freedom flight , and passing 2 week quarantine , into the antipode wilds , so peace of mind for us covid-19-free munchkins , who have endured shutdowns , privations and altered realities from almost day 1 this is serious alert for the sake of pandemic minimal threat living and now just starting to reap the economic benefits as the economy bounces back with a relatively healthy and mentally stable citizenry

[kh-stanley1]

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[countessalmirena]

What is happening in India at the moment is frightful; it is a humanitarian crisis of shocking dimensions. I would like to see medical aid dispensed more rapidly, but really the most effective way to intervene is to provide the wherewithal for large-scale vaccinations throughout India.

The density of population is a major factor in this wave of infections. There's a more infectious and deadly variant of COVID-19 sweeping the country; there are large gatherings taking place when such things should be banned until the numbers go down; there is an overwhelmed health system; there are poorly made masks (moreover, they are not being worn correctly) rather than P2/N95 masks being worn; there is insufficient washing of hands with soap and water, with use of hand sanitiser when out and about; there is little social distancing occurring; there isn't enough raw material for some components of vaccine production at present.

Part of it is due to the poverty of much of the Indian population. Some of the measures required (for instance, purchasing P2 masks) are not cheap.

It's a tragedy happening right now. I'm horrified by the anecdotal evidence of so many people dying without being able to gain admittance to a hospital, with oxygen so scarce that it's become a black market product. I doubt that any of us are untouched by the suffering that is being reported.

Our human compassionate instincts would want to rush in and save everyone there. At the very least, we would want Australian citizens currently stuck in India and in grave danger of contracting that dangerous strain of SARS-CoV-2 to be helped out of India as soon as possible.

There are unfortunately other issues at play. Bringing back Australians from India at the moment increases the risk to Australia, because no quarantine system is perfect. It can't be, with human behaviour part of the equation. However careful we are, there is a measurable risk of an infected returned traveller being the source of viral infection to others. There are all sorts of high risk points where that possibiity of escaped transmission becomes significant.

We can reduce the risk dramatically. The quarantine facilities must meet high standards of ventilation and air flow set by mechanical engineers, not by doctors. Doctors don't have the expertise for that. Infection experts need to work hand in hand with engineers on this. If every hotel room were negative-pressure, we'd be doing extremely well - but people making decisions about what level of ventilation and airflow management is needed for people at RISK of carrying COVID-19 (that is, not confirmed cases) are very unlikely to insist that negative-pressure rooms are needed for every single returned traveller. It would be a huge expense and probably considered over-kill.

But as the actual number of returned travellers with COVID-19 rises, the risk rises.

That's why pressing pause on returned travellers from India at the moment is probably a necessary step, as heartbreaking as it might be. Increased number of travellers with the virus = increased risk to everyone involved in the quarantine; that means security guards, medical personnel, hotel staff, cleaners, transport personnel, other returned travellers, everyone who is a close contact to any of these, etc. It quickly become unmanageable - and it only takes one returned traveller who tests negative during their quarantine period but is actually cooking the virus inside their body (i.e., tests positive more than 14 days after arriving in Australia) to make it probable that community transmission will kick off from that one person.

Of course it's something of a segue, but people who are fully vaccinated may be less likely to have sufficient viral load for COVID-19 to be transmissible from them. The data to date suggests that this is the case, but more results will be forthcoming. It's still possible for a vaccinated person (to the best of my knowledge at this time) to pass on the virus, but it is (in my opinion and according to current data) less likely than for an unvaccinated person to pass on the virus - and it is also less likely (usual caveats) for any such transmission to be of sufficient viral load to result in severe infection. Current results in real-world scenarios are supporting this view, and it would be a relief to have additional results and more stringent studies confirm it.

In the meantime, I hope Australia's quarantine facilities and their protocols can be beefed up to enable resumption of repatriation flights - and I hope also that India can manufacture far more vaccine to enable mass innoculations. The people of India have suffered enough and don't deserve the heartbreak they are experiencing.

[4channel]

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@rogespeed wrote:

Vaccines do not work instantly as thay are not antidotes  , however would be good as part of any pre-departure covid free procedure ,  to ensure future protection when the now hapless expatriats ( who had a year to return ) emerge after a freedom flight , and passing 2 week quarantine , into the antipode wilds , so peace of mind for us covid-19-free munchkins , who have endured shutdowns , privations and altered realities from almost day 1 this is serious alert for the sake of pandemic minimal threat living and now just starting to reap the economic benefits as the economy bounces back with a relatively healthy and mentally stable citizenry

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Hearing statistics and confirmation from experts who have proved that India has a more effective early stage treatment approach than certain Western countries ( at least it was up until earlier this year and still may be), there are some options available. Rather than have the promotion of an experimental vaccine as a sole solution, perhaps other proven treatment and precaution be followed though with the required quarantine.  This early stage treatment I talk of you would be well aware as it was the same treatment your provide a link to some time back.  Dr. Peter McCullough explained this in his interview.

With a proven effective early stage treatment being combined with effective supplements such as high-dose Vitamin C and Vitamin D, all that would be required would be a necessary quarantine period upon arrival. IMO, this is much more a commonsense approach than a false sense of security (yes the vaccinated can still spread disease) from an experimental vaccine that has more and more casualties as time proves.

Our society needs healing and good nutrition, chemical reduction in food and water, promotion of exercise is beneficial.

And bring Aussies home soon. They need to come back.

[countessalmirena]

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@4channel wrote:

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Hearing statistics and confirmation from experts who have proved that India has a more effective early stage treatment approach than certain Western countries ( at least it was up until earlier this year and still may be), there are some options available. Rather than have the promotion of an experimental vaccine as a sole solution, perhaps other proven treatment and precaution be followed though with the required quarantine. 

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4channel, I'm so dismayed by your post.

You have a good heart, I think. You want to seek out truth. It's important not to be so blinded by a particular perspective that one ignores truth, and we've all fallen victim to that particular trap at some point in our lives, I suspect.

When you talk about India having a "more effective early stage treatment approach", that is simply not true. I'm not saying this because of any sort of bias or any sort of wish to shut down discussion, or any animus against you; I'm saying this because it isn't true. When you say it "still may be", it's not true. It is truly, truly not true.

India had relative success early on for a number of reasons - primarily the percentage of younger people in the poppulation. The most recent data with this second wave of theirs does not show relative success; rather, it shows utter disaster. Heartbreaking disaster.

Please read it from the horse's mouth. Here's a link to The Indian Express newspaper. The latest information on that newspaper showing COVID-19 live updates states:

❝Coronavirus India Live Updates: As the national capital continues to struggle with high Covid cases and the resultant oxygen shortage, Delhi High Court on Sunday asked the Delhi government to ensure that oxygen cylinders, flow meters and medicines required for COVID-19 treatment are not sold above MRP. “Those found hoarding and black-marketing medicines and equipment related to COVID-19 should be booked,” the HC said.

Haryana will go into a complete lockdown for a week from May 3, state minister Anil Vij has said. Prime Minister Narendra Modi is holding a virtual meeting with experts to review availability of oxygen, medicine and human resources to deal with the pandemic.

A day after India’s daily Covid cases passed the grim four lakh mark for the first time, the country registered 3,689 deaths — the highest toll reported in a day so far. As many as 3.92 lakh fresh cases were reported in the last 24 hours.❞

But please read the actual newspaper to see more in grim context.

Also: India Times (published New Delhi):

❝Delhi Covid lockdown news live: National capital receives its second Oxygen Express with 120 MT liquid medical oxygen

The daily toll of Covid-19 in Delhi breached the 400-mark on Saturday with 412 more people succumbing to the disease in the last 24 hours. This is the highest number of deaths recorded in the city till date. Earlier, on April 29, Delhi had recorded 395 deaths due to the viral illness. The total number of deaths due to Covid-19 in the national capital has reached 16,559, which is the second-highest in the country after Maharashtra, where 69,615 people have succumbed to the disease since the beginning of the pandemic. From April 1 to May 1, Delhi has recorded 6,262 deaths, averaging 202 fatalities daily. In March, the average death reported daily was around four. Stay with TOI for all updates❞

It's a disaster. It's awful. It's out of control.

I am asking you not to dismiss this with an appeal to Peter McCullough's writings, to which I do not subscribe. I do not accept his article "Multifaceted highly targeted sequential multidrug treatment of early ambulatory high-risk SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19)", published in the very journal of which he is the chief editor. You have been vocal about the bad behaviour of some pharmaceutical companies; logically you must realise - just as a hypothetical - that some doctors can be wrong. In a pandemic, when scientists of all walks of life across the world are so focused on trying to stop the pandemic and to save lives, to make life normal again, it is a logical difficulty to give more credence to a handful of doctors who persist in putting forth their notions of how to stop or treat COVID-19 rather than to all of the doctors and medical experts who are working exhaustedly and exhaustively in live studies and resource-heavy trials and research which say that those notions are simply ineffective.

In my view, Dr Peter McCullough is not a hero in a disaster movie. He is spreading misinformation, notwithstanding his medical degree. Again, I am not saying this out of a wish to stifle discussion. I'm stating my view.

[4channel]

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@countessalmirena wrote:

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4channel, I'm so dismayed by your post.

You have a good heart, I think. You want to seek out truth. It's important not to be so blinded by a particular perspective that one ignores truth, and we've all fallen victim to that particular trap at some point in our lives, I suspect.

When you talk about India having a "more effective early stage treatment approach", that is simply not true. I'm not saying this because of any sort of bias or any sort of wish to shut down discussion, or any animus against you; I'm saying this because it isn't true. When you say it "still may be", it's not true. It is truly, truly not true.

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Sorry countessalmirena but I don't believe that you are coming from where you say you are. And we'll leave it at that.  Because of a few reasons, it's not possible for me and others similar to engage in a proper discussion.

Quote: " and we've all fallen victim to that particular trap at some point in our lives, I suspect. " 

Answer:  A veiled something! *WINK*

The below content is a general one rather than a reply to you.

I am not anti-vaccination. I believe some are helpful. I believe that those who choose not to be vaccinated   should have their stance respected just as much as those that do.

Dr. Peter McCullough's views and stance are backed up by other medical professionals who know that this professor is correct.

There are other early stage treatments such as the incorporation of ivermectin that have been proven to work.

Any treatment, early stage or otherwise should only be done under direction of a medical professional.

People need to come home and better management of quarantine and improvement is highly possible. I believe that this current administration with its history of serving interests other than those of the people it's supposed to, plus it's history of gross incompetence is the stumbling block for people returning home.

I see a lot of similarities today in media coverage with what was happening in the lead up to the invasion of Iraq.

[4channel]

If greed were taken out of the equation, there wouldn't be the issue that we see today. Pandemics such as this one would be handled a lot more efficiently because dishonesty wouldn't be masking the truth.

Cheap and easy to produce oral treatments have less benefit to big pharma than others.  In the term, another medical approach will be more beneficial to a certain few.

When greed is present, human beings and the environment have little value.

[the_great_she_elephant]

"Multifaceted highly targeted sequential multidrug treatment of early ambulatory high-risk SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19)"

What a little goldmine for 'Big Pharma" 😲