NEGATIVE feedback option for time wasting non paying bidders to be exposed?

[gsd76_2008]

It is high time that ebay reintroduce feedback options for SELLERS, other than positive - so that time wasting NON PAYING BIDDERS can be exposed!!   Any other sellers agree?....

[digital*ghost]

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@crikey*mate wrote:

that works for me didi, You're a rock star!

and i can't think of a legal reason why it couldn't be implemented.

so now we have to think of reasons why eBay haven't implemented it.

Would it be a case of not enough sever room or caopability to cope with millions of items going on and off the site every 2 hours?

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I honestly don't know what kind of strain something like that would put on servers, but I'm actually leaning more towards having the flexibility for sellers to state an official payment time frame (and when I say official, I pretty much mean it's reflected in standard terms, like payment options, handling time, return policies etc), and to have more choice about how UPIs are handled when it comes to disputes. At the moment it's very much either / or for a lot of things, and I know that suits ebay for a variety of reasons, but it doesn't suit a lot of their users, dagnabbit!

[*crikey*mate*]

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@digital*ghost wrote:

crikey, I think you are still missing my point. We have seen cases on the forums where a buyer admits to having well over 50 (I actually think it was just over 80-odd) UPI strikes in the last 12 months, eBay took no action against them. I get that we have a strike system and that it can work as a preventative measure (that's why I keep advocating it - see my first post in this thread today), but my point was... eBay can and do take action against sellers, but they are reluctant - at best - to take action against buyers. 

Pretty sure I eventually arrived at the same conclusion (yeah I know, it often takes me a while to get my head around things) and pretty sure I went on to explain why I thought that might be so.

I understand the reasoning behind eBay's bias - and that's exactly what it is - NPBs do not hurt them anywhere near as much as a non-performing seller can, so I don't really need a lesson on the how's and why eBay make the decisions they do, what - if anything - I can do about it or situations eBay can't handle on my behalf, and if I had a major problem with it I wouldn't still be here - I know about freedom of choice, and I know that both eBay and I have it.

well maybe someone who didn't understand now does. Lots of people read here, not just us. and I thought your points were valid and I enjoyed answering them. Apologies if it offended you.

However, none of that means I can't or shouldn't regard eBay and their actions with discernment, which is what I'm doing when I enter into these discussions. 

I do not expect eBay to chase after money on my behalf - that is not what I'm suggesting happens when I suggest a seller - as an end user of eBay - is provided with more options than "immediate payment required" when conducting business here, there's no reason for them not to help sellers have a higher success rate, and it wouldn't compromise a buyer's user experience either. 

I can think of a few reasons.  Implementation is cost prohibitive. They don't realize there is a problem, or if they do, that it is as significant as "we" are saying it is. (80 stikes, seriously??? *feints* and they owned up to that??? Yikes) or They don't want to for reasons explained above.

It's the same as any user of any service - I can make suggestions, wish things were a certain way, provide feedback on my experience and ask if certain things are possible in order to improve my experience. It doesn't equate to an expectation the site, in this instance eBay, will cater to my every whim, or meet my "demands", it just means I'm looking at / thinking about / highlighting certain areas and maybe they'll be workable or get taken on board (ever the fantasist in some ways).

They provide immediate payment required options to eliminate NPBs and having to do any chasing whatsoever, via eBay and/or the legal system, my suggestions only serve to make that option more flexible so that different businesses and buyers can have their needs met, which IMHO should be important to them.

  Oh, you're not up to my next post yet, eh? I thought that was a great idea, and I couldn't think of any reasons why it wasn't legally possible. but did think of a few obstacles. but obstacles just mean we have to find a way around them. That's all. Find a way to make them possible,

In regards to the site I mentioned, if I add a fixed price item to my cart, it is immediately sold (ergo purchased), then in their T&Cs:

4. BIDDING AND BUYING

As a buyer, you have a legal obligation to complete a transaction with XXXXXXXX:

• a) if you purchase an item through one of our fixed price formats; or
• b) if you are the highest bidder at the end of an auction-style listing (meeting the applicable minimum bid or reserve requirements and including any bid that becomes the highest after a valid bid retraction) and your bid is accepted by the seller, unless the transaction is prohibited by law or by this User Agreement.

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mmmm thank you.

how does that site explain about the two hour thing? That's intriguing, cos that clause doesn't specify when or how they have to pay, also that bit only says there is a requirement by law, not of that site. That bit just looks like a brief lesson on law for the benefit of  people who don't realize they are entering a contract,

[*crikey*mate*]

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@digital*ghost wrote:

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@crikey*mate wrote:

that works for me didi, You're a rock star!

and i can't think of a legal reason why it couldn't be implemented.

so now we have to think of reasons why eBay haven't implemented it.

Would it be a case of not enough sever room or caopability to cope with millions of items going on and off the site every 2 hours?

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I honestly don't know what kind of strain something like that would put on servers, but I'm actually leaning more towards having the flexibility for sellers to state an official payment time frame (and when I say official, I pretty much mean it's reflected in standard terms, like payment options, handling time, return policies etc), and to have more choice about how UPIs are handled when it comes to disputes. At the moment it's very much either / or for a lot of things, and I know that suits ebay for a variety of reasons, but it doesn't suit a lot of their users, dagnabbit!

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well, if people can come up with a viable suggestion, there is nothing stopping anyone from putting it forth. But it would have to be researched, and presented like a business proposal as well. It would have to be "sold" to eBay as good for them too - the old "what's in it for me?" thing.

we will need statistics and facts, not just "johnny said he gets a lot of NPB's," iykwim, cos eBay may believe differently.

and it would involve looking for obstacles so that we could be preemptive and have a solution prepared to counter an objection.

I'm keen if you are, but it would mean I might not agree with everything and also find reasons why something might not work, but only so we can move on to stuff that can work or find ways around obstacles iykwim.

There is no point going to eBay with a shell of an idea. If you want them to take it seriously, it will take work.

At this stage NPB's are clearly not their focus, so you have to find a way to make it their focus or offer tham an easy well thought out solution including why it is such a great idea for them (as they really don't care about us iykwim) to implement it.

[digital*ghost]

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@crikey*mate wrote:

well maybe someone who didn't understand now does. Lots of people read here, not just us. and I thought your points were valid and I enjoyed answering them. Apologies if it offended you.

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I wasn't offended so much as I was slightly frustrated - more often than not, when I post things that question eBay's decisions or conduct, I'm not looking for answers from eBay's perspective - practical, legal, or otherwise - as I generally have a solid understanding of such things, maybe others don't, and it's cool if the info helps, but I post those as largely rhetorical questions, but questioning for a reason, and in an effort to highlight a point I'm trying to make, which gets a bit lost in the exercise of "here's all the possible reasons for everything" (I don't mean to offend with that comment, I just couldn't think of another way to put how these discussions often progress). o_o

So that's why I kept cutting back to the point.  But that's partly my fault for not making my intention / purpose clear, which was simply to respond to some blanket statments about eBay's actions and point out that they do have both pre-existing policies that address certain issues, and the power to enforce them, they're just selective about when and how they do, with a demonstrated history of being significantly more lenient with buyers who do not honour their contracts than they are with sellers who do said same...and that's the sort of stuff that should make people question eBay, which doesn't have to conflict with understanding why they do it in the first place.

[*crikey*mate*]

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@digital*ghost wrote:

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@crikey*mate wrote:

well maybe someone who didn't understand now does. Lots of people read here, not just us. and I thought your points were valid and I enjoyed answering them. Apologies if it offended you.

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I wasn't offended so much as I was slightly frustrated - more often than not, when I post things that question eBay's decisions or conduct, I'm not looking for answers from eBay's perspective - practical, legal, or otherwise - as I generally have a solid understanding of such things, maybe others don't, and it's cool if the info helps, but I post those as largely rhetorical questions, but questioning for a reason, and in an effort to highlight a point I'm trying to make, which gets a bit lost in the exercise of "here's all the possible reasons for everything" (I don't mean to offend with that comment, I just couldn't think of another way to put how these discussions often progress). o_o

So that's why I kept cutting back to the point.  But that's partly my fault for not making my intention / purpose clear, which was simply to respond to some blanket statments about eBay's actions and point out that they do have both pre-existing policies that address certain issues, and the power to enforce them, they're just selective about when and how they do, with a demonstrated history of being significantly more lenient with buyers who do not honour their contracts than they are with sellers who do said same...and that's the sort of stuff that should make people question eBay, which doesn't have to conflict with understanding why they do it in the first place.

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so, you post questions and make comments, even answer  or respond to some of my posts,

but the questions are all rhetorical, so you don't want answers.OK

and you don't want responses to your comments, You just want people to accept them, but not respond etc, or does that just apply to me?

and when you respond to my posts, then what you say is final and no further correspondence is to be entered into, OK

Now I know. Before I didn't.

Maybe you need a disclaimer in your siggy or something saying all that, eh?

and whilst you may understand and know the reasoning behind some decisions/practises, maybe not everyone does, So, by knowing and/or exploring how and why things happen, this has the potential to lead to an understanding of why things are how they are. and that understanding can only lead people to an understanding of how best to work within the system currently provided for their use for the greatest effectiveness and increase or maximize their own protection and security for the best eBay trading experience possible.

[kobies_costume_jewelry]

It's E'bay's site they can impose penalties as they see fit. They do it to the seller's. So why not the non paying bidder's.

Take people to court over a dollar? I dont expect them to do that just like the buyer doesnt expect me to take them to court over ten dollars either. But I expect them to suspend or cancel the buyer's account for continuous breach of the contract they have with the buyer and I expect them to fix a problem that is rife on their site and has been for how many year's now? I googled this problem and was surprised at all the pages that relate to this topic.

The system is broken and needs to be fixed. 

The strike system does not work.  how many strikes do I get as a seller before E'bay close or suspend my account.

Yet as a buyer I am allowed to make contract's break them and have very little in the way of repurcussion's, just a strike against my name. ouch and limited to buying from unsuspecting people who dont have blocks in place.

How many strikes do I get before E'bay do something about it? 10, 20 100 from what I have been able to find out there is no limit.

For aslong as I pay one of the twenty auction's I have won E'bay are happy 

What about the 19 seller's I broke a contract with? Not to mention the 19 breaches of the contract with E'bay?

Why are E'bay allowing them to continue buying when they are obviuosly causing problems with the seller.

It's ok for a business to have inventory tied up with NPB but what about us newbie's or casual seller's.  I only get to list 10 item's (to a max of 40 listing's per month) at a time and for each one I sell is one less I can list so if I sell all ten and all ten turn out to be NPB (who only have one strike aginst their name)  I do the right thing and I have to wait the 8 day's before I can relist? Not fair I have done nothing wrong yet I am being punished (by having to wait 8 days before I can relist). 4 of our first 9 sales were NPB so you can see how that affected us. 

When buyer's start to have their account suspended for the breaches they commit then and only then will Ebay be seen to be doing something about this.  

We all agreed to abide by the same user agreement yet Ebay treat us differently.

As you have pointed out Ebay only provide us with a platform to buy and sell. IMO its more like being on a see saw with a bigger kid on the other side. 

But E'bay will continue to trade like this while experienced seller's like yourself give them justification for their action's.

[digital*ghost]

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@crikey*mate wrote:

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1. so, you post questions and make comments, even answer  or respond to some of my posts,

2. but the questions are all rhetorical, so you don't want answers.OK

3. and you don't want responses to your comments, You just want people to accept them, but not respond etc, or does that just apply to me?

4. and when you respond to my posts, then what you say is final and no further correspondence is to be entered into, OK

5. Now I know. Before I didn't.

Maybe you need a disclaimer in your siggy or something saying all that, eh?

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I've nummbered your sentences to make the following easier.

1. Yes.

2. Not quite.

3. No, I didn't say anything remotely like that.

4. See above comment.

5. Nope, you really don't.

[*crikey*mate*]

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@kobies_costume_jewelry wrote:

It's E'bay's site they can impose penalties as they see fit. They do it to the seller's. So why not the non paying bidder's.

I believe that I answered this back there.

Take people to court over a dollar? I dont expect them to do that just like the buyer doesnt expect me to take them to court over ten dollars either.

But you can, it is you that chooses not to.

But I expect them to suspend or cancel the buyer's account for continuous breach of the contract they have with the buyerand I expect them to fix a problem that is rife on their site and has been for how many year's now? I googled this problem and was surprised at all the pages that relate to this topic.

Isn't that their decision to make? At what time they wish to take action? Plus see earlier posts.

The system is broken and needs to be fixed. 

At this stage, it appears that either eBay are not aware of a problem, or that they don't believe that the problem is of such significance that it needs to be "fixed" or maybe they are allready doing what they can or are prepared to do in line with their business goals and objectives.

The strike system does not work.  It seems to be working for me. how many strikes do I get as a seller before E'bay close or suspend my account. I don't know, how many?

Yet as a buyer I am allowed to make contract's break them and have very little in the way of repurcussion's, That's noty true at all, but you need to initiate action not rely on someone else to do it for you.

just a strike against my name. ouch and limited to buying from unsuspecting people who dont have blocks in place. Perhaps people need to be familiar with policies and methods of safe trading before starting to do so. The information is all available for us to read,

How many strikes do I get before E'bay do something about it? 10, 20 100 from what I have been able to find out there is no limit.

Isn't it eBay's decision to decide when to take action against people they believe are in breach of their contract with them? eBay have provided sellers with tools to protect themselves, but they cannot force people to use them. There are some sellers who do not use the strike system, preferring instead to leave a false positive feedback, so it is your fellow sellers letting you down, the ones that don't issue the strikes and then it is individual sellers who do not put their blocks in place to restrict those who have been issued strikes. I fail to understand how any of this is eBay's fault.

For aslong as I pay one of the twenty auction's I have won E'bay are happy 

What about the 19 seller's I broke a contract with? It is up to you to have those contracts enforced, that is not eBay's responsibility even if they legally could.

Not to mention the 19 breaches of the contract with E'bay?

again their decision when to enforce these.and I daresay that will happen at a point in time when they believe it is affecting their business with sufficient adequacy.

Why are E'bay allowing them to continue buying when they are obviuosly causing problems with the seller.

Block them, it is those without their blocks in place that are allowing them to buy.

It's ok for a business to have inventory tied up with NPB but what about us newbie's or casual seller's.

The law of contract applies to everybody equally, it makes no distinction and shows no bias,

I only get to list 10 item's (to a max of 40 listing's per month) at a time and for each one I sell is one less I can list so if I sell all ten and all ten turn out to be NPB (who only have one strike aginst their name)  I do the right thing and I have to wait the 8 day's before I can relist? Not fair I have done nothing wrong yet I am being punished (by having to wait 8 days before I can relist). 4 of our first 9 sales were NPB so you can see how that affected us. 

I am sorry that this has happened to you, You have had more non payers in your short time here than I have had in 9 years. I have no explanation for that, I'm sorry.

When buyer's start to have their account suspended for the breaches they commit then and only then will Ebay be seen to be doing something about this.  

Clearly, they don't see a need to do more than they already are.

We all agreed to abide by the same user agreement yet Ebay treat us differently.

The long answers are back there somewhere. The short answer is that eBay seems to have identified that for the overall benefit and prosperity of their business that their focus needs to be on sellers. Maybe once they have them sorted out they will move onto addressing the buyers? Or as I suggested, that due to the apparent non reporting of non payers, that eBay doesn't believe the issue is as prevalant as we believe, or maybe it isn't affedting their business goals enough to warrant more specific action as yet,

As you have pointed out Ebay only provide us with a platform to buy and sell. IMO its more like being on a see saw with a bigger kid on the other side. 

But E'bay will continue to trade like this while experienced seller's like yourself give them justification for their action's.

It is not justification at all, it is simply an understanding of "why it is so".

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each of us did agree to the User Agreement, and it is quite clear that eBay makes no guarantees about the outcomes of our individual transactions. They are very upfront about this. They have provided full disclosure of their intentions. They make no promises which of the contracts with them they will or won't enforce.

If we as users believe that eBay are in breach of their contract with us, then we can bring them to task, If enough people band together, maybe even as a class action in tort? I don't know nor am I advocating this.

Alternatively, if any of us are not happy with the service that eBay do provide us, then they have also made it clear that they will agree to release you from your contractual obligations with them any time that you choose. All you have to do is ask to close your account and once eBay are satisfied that everything is finalized, they are happy to sever the contract,

eBay provide a service, If we are not happy with the quality of that service we do not have to use it.

It is that simple.

We just have to decide if the good outweighs the bad and if the environment suits our purposes and meets our needs and wants,

[gec2002]

The strike system does not work.  It seems to be working for me.

Aren't you lucky, unfortunately for a lot of sellers its not working

how many strikes do I get as a seller before E'bay close or suspend my account. I don't know, how many?

If they knew they would not have asked the question, clearly you don't know either so why bait the writer with "how many" they have implied they don't know

Isn't it eBay's decision to decide when to take action against people they believe are in breach of their contract with them?

Yes it is, so are you saying that sellers have no right to voice an opinion, and perhaps try to influence eBay in their decision making

There are some sellers who do not use the strike system, preferring instead to leave a false positive feedback,

Yes and for every false positive I would bet there are others who don't leave FB and just issue a strike as there is no other opinion other than to leave a positive, or are you infering that buyer with false positives have zero strikes.  The system might work,t if it wasn't so easy to get strikes removed or start off again with a new trading ID and zero strikes)

so it is your fellow sellers letting you down

how offensive, I am certainly not letting down my fellow sellers and I would bet neither are most of the sellers on this forum

I fail to understand how any of this is eBay's fault. 

It may not be eBays fault but that doesn't mean that the system could not be improved, you may not be able to see it but sometimes customers can see issues much better than management, and if an organisation isn't prepared to listen to ALL of its customers (buyers and Sellers) than its going to miss out on a great deal of insight into its business

You have had more non payers in your short time here than I have had in 9 years. I have no explanation for that,

All I can say is either you don't sell much or you have been very lucky, eBay themselves estimate that non payment is running at about 2.6% in 2012 equal to $468 million per year

If we as users believe that eBay are in breach of their contract with us, then we can bring them to task, If enough people band together, maybe even as a class action in tort?  I don't know nor am I advocating this. 

Yes but only in Australia, as you read user agreements I am sure you know that in the US their user agreement under Prohibition of Class and Representative Actions and Non-Individualized Relief states "YOU AND EBAY AGREE THAT EACH OF US MAY BRING CLAIMS AGAINST THE OTHER ONLY ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS AND NOT AS A PLAINTIFF OR CLASS MEMBER IN ANY PURPORTED CLASS OR REPRESENTATIVE ACTION OR PROCEEDING."   So if you have problems with US buyers don't think about class action.

Alternatively, if any of us are not happy with the service that eBay do provide us, then they have also made it clear that they will agree to release you from your contractual obligations with them any time that you choose. All you have to do is ask to close your account and once eBay are satisfied that everything is finalized, they are happy to sever the contract, 

Yes I am sure they would but actually a lot of us sellers like trading on eBay, but that doesn't mean that we don't think there aren't issues and problems - in a meanful business relationship one would hope the bigger more powerful partner would listen to the compliants of the junior partner, rather than just ride rough shod over them because they can.  The issue is more than just the legalities.

But I guess I can go off to my fantasy world as rudely suggested by you earlier.

[springyzone]

On the US site eBay are altering how they handle handle Buy It Now and Best Offer transactions and won't consider items "sold" until the buyer actually pays.  They also changed being able to open an unpaid item case after two days. eBay states " eligible listings will remain active until a buyer submits payment; the item will only be considered sold when the buyer pays for the item."

This would really help, its not the non-payment by itself that is a pain its that 8 days stock is tied up which directly impacts on cashflow.  The sooner its introduced here the better.  I understand only the reduction in waiting time helps auctions but it would be a start.

At the end of the day eBay is about the only online marketplace where users can buy a fixed-price item without paying for it on the spot.   Items in carts not paid for, can become unavailable if others buy and pay straight away , so the concept is not unknown to alot of buyers.

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I think that would work. Ebay seems to be moving towards what i would call a daily deal sort of model anyway.

And I think they have introduced carts?

There is no reason that buy it now items should be considered sold while they are in a cart and they sure aren't on sites such as Catch of the day.

I would think it is only a matter of time till this is introduced on aussie ebay.

If you are a seller and don't pay your ebay fees, what happens? From what I have heard, your account is suspended until you do pay. No mucking around.

I suppose for auction items and pick up items might need to allow a few days, but the whole process could be fast tracked a little better than it is now.