seems mandatory vaccine is the go for the work place ....

The vaccine for covid , seems now being mandated for those currently employed

Seems like a violation of the existing conditions of employment for many , particularly whereby there is no mandate for  influenza vaccine requirement

Of course a harmless vaccine proven to mitigate against deadly covid-19 is desirable however some may object for whatever reason - and as are currently employed , one wonders the moral efficacy of coerced inoculation, as is clearly a workplace agreement item 

There is talk of dismissing currently employed workers for non-compliance

This to me would violate existing workplace agreements and a violation - fully paid leave would be the only  ethical way of excluding current employees ( unless all are retrenched then re-employed under covid safe clauses ) 

If there was no alternate to vaccination a strong case could be argued

But there are alternatives - periodic pcr tests,  daily check-in fast antigen tests , 1 minute on the treadmill 

The vaccines are released under emergency use meaning are experimental , so clearly fall under international law regarding strictly no forcing of experimental treatments

 

All that i am saying is that while inoculation is the most convenient , controllable and cost effective procedure , there should be an alternate process that meets workplace requirements

 

 

 

  

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seems mandatory vaccine is the go for the work place ....

While I'm in favour of vaccines, and think that mandating vaccines for some, such as people who work in healthcare (in contact with those who are potentially ill and have low resistance, or immune systems that are lowered or ineffective through medication or particular conditions especially) is necessary, I do not think that every worker must be vaccinated. Some, whose work involves a lot of contact with the public, might be able to be redeployed in a different area. Some who have existing antibodies from having already recovered from a bout of COVID-19 have roughly the same sort of protection against reinfection as those who have been vaccinated.

 

I would PREFER if everyone who can be vaccinated is vaccinated. Force is not the answer, though.

 

A very great part of the current hardnut attitude who don't want to be vaccinated (and I mean hardnut as in strongly opposed, not as in mentally defective) is due to dangerous misinformation. That misinformation has been allowed to circulate, and efforts to stop it have been largely ineffective. It's shared by people who are suspicious of governments and the media in general, and who are susceptible to being influenced by others in their group or family or vicinity.

 

The media has to bear some of the responsibility. Their irresponsible dramatising of the very very low adverse outcomes of the AstraZeneca vaccine played a huge part in generating some vaccine hesitancy. Ridiculous reporting. Even now, it's almost impossible to have a logical conversation with anyone about that extremely low percentage of blood clotting. If I try to explain by comparing risk (in percentages) of being severely injured or killed in a road accident, there's a definite wall up that means people are not listening. They're not computing the real risk. Their heads are so filled with a different narrative that they are ready to argue and pfffft before hearing the data.

 

Road Accidents in Australia - risks and data

 

In 2018, there were 39,598 hospitalised injuries due to road accidents. Of those, there was a high threat to life in 10,097 (that is, 25.5%) of them.
Annual fatality rate per 100,000 population: 4.3 during 2020. (This is lower than previous years because of COVID restrictions; however, let's go with that lower number.)
That is, there's a risk of being killed in a road accident of 0.0043% in the year 2020.

 

Do people stop driving because of this risk?

 

No.

 

Developing TTS as a result of AstraZeneca vaccine - risks and data

 

Risk of developing TTS (thrombosis in combination with thrombocytopenia) after a dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine is between 0.001% and 0.002% for people over 60, and between 0.002% and 0.003% for people under 60.


Up to 29 August 2021, just to put actual number to it, there were 125 probable cases of TTS in Australia. (Not deaths, just cases of TTS.) The great majority of them were able to be treated. We've even improved in being able to diagnose and treat TTS.


Out of 9.6 million AstraZeneca doses administered in Australia, there have been 9 deaths. This equates to the risk of death being lower than 1 in a million. Let me put that in terms of percentage: 0.000001%. That's right; the risk of dying from an adverse reaction to the AstraZeneca vaccine is 0.000001%.

 

Developing TTS as a result of getting COVID-19 - risks and data

 

The risk of developing TTS as a result of getting COVID-19 is significantly higher than developing it after being vaccinated with AstraZeneca. More than 10% of hospitalised COVID-19 patients develop TTS.

 

Mortality rates PRIOR TO THE INTRODUCTION OF VACCINES for the overall population-wide risk of death after the diagnosis of a COVID-19 infection was 4 percent.

However, this overall mortality risk hides wide disparities in age groups:

COVID-19 mortality risk was 40 percent for the elderly (90+), which was 10 times the population-wide risk

  • 32 percent COVID-19 mortality risk for people in their 80s
  • 14 percent COVID-19 mortality risk for people in their 70s
  • 3 percent COVID-19 mortality risk for people in their 60s
  • Less than 1 percent COVID-19 mortality risk for people in their 50s or younger.

Now that the administering of vaccines has begun to affect the data, the situation shows a significant - one might say dramatic - change. We've had 145,073 confirmed cases of COVID-19 since the beginning of 2020, with 1,545 deaths due to COVID-19.
That puts the risk of death at 0.01065%, by which I do not mean that the OVERALL RISK of dying from COVID-19 is 0.01065%, but rather it is at that percentage primarily because of the effect of the vaccines.

 

That percentage doesn't tell the whole tale. It conflates the risk of death of the unvaccinated with the risk of death of the vaccinated. The risk of dying if one is unvaccinated remains at the percentages above (i.e., 40% for >90+, 32% for >80+, 14% for >70+, 3% for 60+, 0.9%-0.99% for those 50 and under). The risk of dying if VACCINATED is drastically lower: 95% to 98% decreased risk, as Peter Collignon, an infectious diseases physician and microbiologist at the Australian National University, has stated.

 

So... let's say that the chance of an unvaccinated person dying from COVID-19 is 0.9% (the lowest end of the estimate). That's 0.9% risk of death, as opposed to the 0.000001% chance of dying from AstraZeneca. If I were to make the comparison between dying from Pfizer and dying from COVID-19, it's even wider - so much so that it's ridiculous for anyone to refuse to be vaccinated on the grounds of the risk of an adverse reaction to a COVID-19 vaccine.

 

 

But are the vaccine-defiers listening? No, they're not. I'll tell you what they're doing... They're DRIVING THEIR CARS, perfectly happy about the 0.0043% risk of dying in a car accident, but up in arms about the greatly-less-than-0.000001% risk of dying from a COVID-19 vaccine, and defiantly nonchalant about the at-least .9% risk (at best, and increasing heavily with age) of dying of COVID-19.

 

 

 

 

Ah... perspective.

 

That is why I would like people to be properly educated about this disease, its transmissibility, its mortality rate, its after-effects for at least 30% of people who contract it, the process of vaccine development, the safety of these vaccines, their efficacy in trials and effectiveness in the wild, and so on. Making a free choice is only really possible if one has the facts, not a muddled mess of misinformation.

 

 

 

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seems mandatory vaccine is the go for the work place ....

Well described the case for gushing enthusiasm for the jab but I was just wondering the ethics of forcing vaccination to maintain existing employment for workers in workplaces with no historic pathogen related worker requirements 

 

Anyhow seems some vaccines at least have gained full approval in Australia , as they are being marketed under a different name - so are not experimental 

https://www.health.gov.au/resources/publications/covid-19-vaccination-information-on-comirnaty-pfize...

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seems mandatory vaccine is the go for the work place ....

anyhow if you want comment on the current situation , your stats are valid but within an environment of effective lockdowns , social distancing , improved hygiene , improved diet , increased discretionary spending , improved hospital treatments and procedures 

Once society ( the cities ) returns to normal squalid living with high viral loadings recharged from overseas visitors then effectiveness can be realistically evaluated keeping in mind no company claimed effectiveness beyond 95% and over time now much less 

So talk of vaccine alone influencing reduction in deaths to relatively statically zero is fanciful 

 

We need permanent improvements to maintain low viral community loadings and maintain effective personal health - implemented with as much diligence as the vaccines 

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seems mandatory vaccine is the go for the work place ....


@rogespeed wrote:

The vaccine for covid , seems now being mandated for those currently employed

Seems like a violation of the existing conditions of employment for many , particularly whereby there is no mandate for  influenza vaccine requirement


                                             -----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

It is a violation.  And due to the fact that the "jabbed" can still carry and transmit the virus, the reasons or justifications even if it was correct to jab the plebs are just hot air!

 

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@rogespeed wrote:

 

Of course a harmless vaccine proven to mitigate against deadly covid-19 is desirable however some may object for whatever reason - and as are currently employed , one wonders the moral efficacy of coerced inoculation, as is clearly a workplace agreement item 

There is talk of dismissing currently employed workers for non-compliance

This to me would violate existing workplace agreements and a violation - fully paid leave would be the only  ethical way of excluding current employees ( unless all are retrenched then re-employed under covid safe clauses ) 

  


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It's a violation on all counts mate! And if these companies who are trying this caper on are happy to kick someone off their job and in the majority of cases, a hard working faithful employee, then they must compensate, find alternative employment or keep them in the lifestyle they are accustomed to until retirement!

 

                                            -----------------------------------------------------------------------


@rogespeed wrote:

 

If there was no alternate to vaccination a strong case could be argued

But there are alternatives - periodic pcr tests,  daily check-in fast antigen tests , 1 minute on the treadmill 

The vaccines are released under emergency use meaning are experimental , so clearly fall under international law regarding strictly no forcing of experimental treatments

 

All that i am saying is that while inoculation is the most convenient , controllable and cost effective procedure , there should be an alternate process that meets workplace requirements

 

 


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You often, regularly raise very good points rogespeed and your research is very good.  Yes we see the big E coming about.  Then we see the big G. So experimental and guinea pig are in the same room.

 

I don't really know if "inoculation is the most convenient , controllable and cost effective procedure" because there are many things to consider. First of all there is a greater profit with "vaccination" and boosters than there is with drugs. Hmmm, Ok, well Merck's molnupiravir will be profitable. But let's look at the human cost. I'm excluding the side effects which we know about, some of them fatal and I'm looking at another issue. This is PTSTD. I personally believe that people who are forced by gunpoint, OK I'll strike that! People who are threatened with employment termination if they don't take the jab will be traumatized. This will manifest itself in a horrible way down the track. It will have a wider effect than just the individual and their immediate family.

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seems mandatory vaccine is the go for the work place ....

 fully paid leave would be the only  ethical way of excluding current employees

 

Whatever a person's stance on vaccination, this could never be an option. It is an open invitation NOT to be vaccinated. Even someone who wished to be vaccinated would be tempted to say no to it if they were told they could be fully paid forever if they skipped the jab.

 

A sister in law of mine has a son who works at the casino and he has just adored lockdown. For most of the last 18 months, he has been on jobkeeper or whatever it is. Payment for not working. He loves it, he never wants the lockdown to end.

 

I'm not saying everyone is like that. I know for some people it's a stressful time, worrying about their jobs.

But some definitely aren't.

 

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seems mandatory vaccine is the go for the work place ....

Obviously - neither have been an employer. 

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seems mandatory vaccine is the go for the work place ....

Terms of employment do not remain static.....they can and do change with changes in the environment.   Who could have envisioned Covid and it's effects on businesses and people's ways of life.

 

If a business feels the need to make vaccinations mandatory then employees are free to make their own decisions as to whether they will get the job or look for different employment.   I am sure they will be paid all their entitlements.....that would be a given if the jab is written into their terms of employment.

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seems mandatory vaccine is the go for the work place ....

*sigh*… oh look, another anti-vaccine thread! 😣

 

What you don’t seem to understand is that in order for some BIG BUSINESS EMPLOYERS to remain functional during a pandemic, then it must ensure the most effective work safe measures for its employees and at the current moment, that’s the covid-19 vaccine. (And don’t come back at me with ivermectin rubbish because it’s NOT A CURRENT APPROVED TREATMENT!)

 

Why do you think employment is permanent? One’s  job is NEVER secure! We are all replaceable! If you don’t want the vaccine, then they will soon fill your position of employment out with someone who does.  And this is legal under current workplace policies! 
It’s no different to being required to have the annual flu shot as part of your employment conditions.  It’s the same damn thing! It is deemed a Safe Work measure. Completely legal, and if you don’t qualify for an exemption, then either suck it up, or hit the pavement! 
Stop with all the whining and sooking and complaining and just get on with it!
I for one would like to get back to normality.  
So grow up and be adult about it and let’s just get on with the job at hand, and if you can’t do that, then here’s a number for you to enable you all to continue to act like adult cry babies!

Molicare: 1800 805 839 😎

********* *********** *********** ************ ************ *********** ***********
Be Kind To Nurses....
They Stop The Doctors From Killing You.
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seems mandatory vaccine is the go for the work place ....

An extended family member owns a mechanical workshop in Victoria. Today he has announced that due to Dan Andrews mandates and threats of fines, he is being forced to sack two of his long term mechanics who refuse to be vaccinated. They work " out the back " and do not come into regular contact with customers. He wants to keep them on and they want to stay.

 

Being a regional business, they are not going to be easy to replace. The policy is putting the future viability of his business in jeopardy and a country community could lose an important local business. I can understand mandatory vaccination for health care workers and aged care workers, but this is going too far !

 

There's nothing proportionate in Dan Andrew's handling of COVID. The mans a dangerous megalomaniac.

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