eBay Satchel + lodging over counter <> Seller Protection

[mpemberley]

Sold an item. Paid for with PayPal. Used an eBay satchel. Printed label via eBay. Lodged over the counter at post office. Receipt received. Item not delivered. Tracking shows "In Transit". Query lodged. Aus Post can't find it.

Item not received claim resolved in favour of the buyer. Money deducted from our PayPal account.

"Seller Protection" - caveat emptor.

[mpemberley]

"If the Australia post tracking advice states delivered to the buyers postcode then you have... "

That is correct. ONLY in that circumstance can you use the online tracking for Australia Post as proof of delivery.

What if the item is NOT shown as delivered since Australia Post really lost it? (i.e. "In Transit")

What if the item is shown as delivered to the wrong postcode? (eg. the distribution centre, or a slightly different postcode to the Buyer).

You are not protected. You lose if there is a dispute. The online tracking also disappears after a few months, so you will lose a late credit card chargeback.

In reply to the various other replies stating that "PayPal is wrong" and "my own opinion/interpretation of PayPal's website is right":

Would you rather have:

 - your money?

    [when a dispute is raised, send PayPal the over the counter receipt showing date and postcode - you win, the end]

 - argue with PayPal and/or the Financial Services Ombudsman to possibly eventually get your money back?

    [very stressful, and you may get your money back eventually]

There are many, many posts here

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/91?&g=256

in the Whirlpool forum about sellers who *thought* they had Seller Protection but did not.

For some reason, I could not find any such threads here.

Your choice

- be pragmatic and aware of what will happen in the real world, or

- stay deluded and ignore the real life experience of many, many other sellers who *have* gone through the process

[colic2bullsgirlore]

---

@mpemberley wrote:

UPDATE: After calmly and politely discussing the situation at some length with a supervisor at PayPal, we have received a *discretionary* refund.

It was made very clear to us during the conversation that:

eBay Australia Post satchels ARE NOT ELIGIBLE for PayPal Seller Protection

Seller Protection requires;

 - a receipt

 - a date

 - a postcode

on the one piece of paper

Ringing up PayPal or involving the Financial Services Ombudsman MAY get you a *discretionary* refund.

We got lucky this time, but will readjust our risk management accordingly and use the "Extra Cover" option for items of significant value we send in eBay satchels from now on.

A brilliant write-up from "the3coopers" can be found here;

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2206525

Thanks to all here for their advice.

---

Is that your post above???

In the situation I provided in my post above are

eBay Australia Post satchels ARE NOT ELIGIBLE for PayPal Seller Protection ?

(and not only eligble but meet proof of post criteria for a seller to be successful in proving post)

Was the supervisors advice to you 'in no uncertain terms" correct or incorrect?

Do you really think you were just 'lucky'?

That paypal members are discouraged by paypals obfuscation even though proof of postage that meets the user

agreements provisions has been provided and do not correctly seek arbitration through the FOS does not mean

that they were not entitled to it or that the process they used does not meet seller protection guidelines.

I have proved post with a stat dec and a normal postcode receipt.

I have proved international post with an insurance form.

[digital*ghost]

---

@mpemberley wrote:

"If the Australia post tracking advice states delivered to the buyers postcode then you have... "

That is correct. ONLY in that circumstance can you use the online tracking for Australia Post as proof of delivery.

What if the item is NOT shown as delivered since Australia Post really lost it? (i.e. "In Transit")

What if the item is shown as delivered to the wrong postcode? (eg. the distribution centre, or a slightly different postcode to the Buyer).

---

PayPal do not require proof of delivery (at least not for domestic transactions, it may be required for some international transactions, and every now and then PayPal get that wrong, because you don't always encounter someone who is well-versed in Australian policies).

There have been many instances of a parcel going astray, but because the sender can establish proof of postage, they do not lose an INR claim.

I understand the reasons why you are more inclined to believe what a PayPal rep has told you, but what they have told you only matches your experience, not their policy and not many other's experience. 

[thecatspjs]

---

@mpemberley wrote:

"If the Australia post tracking advice states delivered to the buyers postcode then you have... "

That is correct. ONLY in that circumstance can you use the online tracking for Australia Post as proof of delivery.

What if the item is NOT shown as delivered since Australia Post really lost it? (i.e. "In Transit")

What if the item is shown as delivered to the wrong postcode? (eg. the distribution centre, or a slightly different postcode to the Buyer).

You are not protected. You lose if there is a dispute. The online tracking also disappears after a few months, so you will lose a late credit card chargeback.

---

Within Australia, for paypal seller protection, a sender does not have to demonstrate a parcel was delivered, only lodged.

If AP lose a parcel then that is a different matter all together and you can take that up with AP. 

Paypals amended their buyer protection policies to remove coverage for lost or misdelivered parcels if the sender  could demonstrate proof of post and proof of addressee.

[digital*ghost]

---

@mpemberley wrote:

Would you rather have:

 - your money?

    [when a dispute is raised, send PayPal the over the counter receipt showing date and postcode - you win, the end]

 - argue with PayPal and/or the Financial Services Ombudsman to possibly eventually get your money back?

    [very stressful, and you may get your money back eventually]

Your choice

- be pragmatic and aware of what will happen in the real world, or

- stay deluded and ignore the real life experience of many, many other sellers who *have* gone through the process

---

I want to answer these questions separately, and I have one answer for all of them.

What I would rather is that PayPal uphold their policies consistently so that I do not have to fight them if they get them wrong, but I sure as heck will fight them if they get them wrong.

I take offence at the 'deluded' remark, and find it interesting that you assume others are ignoring the real life experience, when the opposite is the reason why the information you were given is being called into question.

I am fully aware PayPal do not always get their own policies right when it comes to a dispute, and I am fully aware that they often issue a "discretionary" refund when they've been caught out getting it wrong. I am not deluded, I am objective and curious, and I have the capacity to question information, no matter what the source, plus the willingness to try and reconcile conflicting information, rather than dismiss and insult those who have different info than I do.

[bigbrickshop]

---

@mpemberley wrote:

in the Whirlpool forum about sellers who *thought* they had Seller Protection but did not.

For some reason, I could not find any such threads here.

---

The reason may be that many many sellers here have been using C&S for the past 4 years which has a similar labelling system as the eBay Postage Labels and they have been accepted by PayPal as proof of shipment together with either a scanning event or a lodgement receipt.

I'm still waiting on a response from PayPal to see how the eBay Postage Labels are any different. Or any different to an eParcel page which is acceptable proof of shipment according to PayPal.

[mpemberley]

---

@digital*ghost wrote:

---

---

What I would rather is that PayPal uphold their policies consistently so that I do not have to fight them if they get them wrong, but I sure as heck will fight them if they get them wrong.

I am fully aware PayPal do not always get their own policies right when it comes to a dispute, and I am fully aware that they often issue a "discretionary" refund when they've been caught out getting it wrong.

---

On the above we can agree.

Perhaps we can also agree on the following:

Over the counter Australia Post receipt showing postcode & date = bullet-proof Seller Protection.

Any other single official courier document showing Buyer address & date & acceptance = bullet-proof Seller Protection.

All other methods: inconsistent.

[digital*ghost]

---

@mpemberley wrote:

---

@digital*ghost wrote:

---

---

What I would rather is that PayPal uphold their policies consistently so that I do not have to fight them if they get them wrong, but I sure as heck will fight them if they get them wrong.

I am fully aware PayPal do not always get their own policies right when it comes to a dispute, and I am fully aware that they often issue a "discretionary" refund when they've been caught out getting it wrong.

---

On the above we can agree.

Perhaps we can also agree on the following:

Over the counter Australia Post receipt showing postcode & date = bullet-proof Seller Protection.

Any other single official courier document showing Buyer address & date & acceptance = bullet-proof Seller Protection.

All other methods: inconsistent.

---

I don't want it to look like I'm arguing for the sake of it, but I hesitate to use 'bullet-proof' where PayPal are concerned, if PayPal are the proverbial bullet, since they don't have a wholly predictable trajectory. 

But by and large, yes... Those methods should qualify for Seller Protection, and sometimes things prove inconsistent. 

[dylan11235813]

I cantacted paypal and this is the response I got.....I also included the question I asked.....They didn;t even answer my question.

-----Q-----------

What specific documentation can I provide to show proof of shipping when a postage label for an order is created through eBay and handed over the counter at Australia Post? This is for postings within Australia.

-------------------

-----A-----------

Thank you for taking the time to contact us with your concerns. I am happy to assist you further.

PayPal Seller Protection covers you in the event of claims, chargebacks, or reversals that are a result of unauthorized purchases or items your buyer didn?t receive. With PayPal Seller Protection, you are covered for the full amount of all eligible transactions.

If a transaction is eligible for Seller Protection, it will be marked as eligible or partially eligible on the Transaction Details page. If it is marked as partially eligible, you are only protected for items a buyer didn?t receive.

Here are some additional requirements you need to meet for Seller Protection:

• You must ship the item to the address on the Transaction Details page.
  • Even if the buyer sends you a request via email or an eBay message requesting shipment to an alternate address, only ship the item to the address provided in the Transaction Details.
• The item must be a physical, tangible item that can be shipped.
  • Physical items do not include digital goods (such as bitcoins, online gaming, or MP3s) or any services provided online or in person.
• Provide proof of delivery. For transactions of $750.00 or more, you need to provide signed delivery confirmation.
  • We require online tracking to confirm delivery.
• Respond to our requests for documentation and other information in a timely manner.
  • These requests will be sent to the primary email address on your PayPal account.

To learn more about PayPal?s Seller Protection Policy, click Legal Agreements at the bottom of any PayPal page, and then click PayPal User Agreement.

It is my pleasure to assist you. Thank you for choosing PayPal.

Sincerely,
Derek
Protection Services Department
PayPal, an eBay Company

[colic2bullsgirlore]

How about ebays "answer" in the FAQ in the seller centre

http://sellercentre.ebay.com.au/postage-and-shipping/buy-print-postage

12. How does PayPal Seller Protection work with Australia Post postage labels?

Label printing helps you meet some of the requirements for PayPal Seller Protection (tracking information for example).

Provided you meet the other basic requirements of PayPal Seller Protection, you'll be covered.

The other basic requirements required must have eluded ebay when they wrote the FAQ

Spoiler

What a shemozzle to design a postal system that is not automatically seller protection compliant