Sellers who say they accept no responsibility for loss in post

I'm just curious as to what others do when they see the usual "I take no responsibility for Australia Post" blah blah.



Do you just avoid these sellers? Or do you buy the item anyway (especially if it's something that's hard to come by), of course paying with PayPal so you're covered if the item does get lost in the post? And do you point out to the seller that they are actually responsible, or do you just let it slide if there are no problems?



This is all assuming that their feedback is good with no complaints about items not received.

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Sellers who say they accept no responsibility for loss in post

Well I dont like it, but paypal Aus only requires proof of posting not delivery, so as long  they lodge with trackable, eg click and send, they are covered, even if it gets lost after posting. Not sure if paypal reimburse buyer or just say tough, but they wont take refund from seller if they can prove posting

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Sellers who say they accept no responsibility for loss in post

and no that does not require sign for and insured post.



So in truth you cant force seller to be responsible for lost items anymore.

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ASSUMPTION IS THE MOTHER OF ALL STUFF UPS!!
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Sellers who say they accept no responsibility for loss in post

99.9 percent of goods sold on line, are specific goods who become the property of the buyer immediately they are paid for.


 


If for the purpose of a transaction an item is to be delivered then the seller remains at risk, that is liable for any loss or damage, until the item is handed to the carrier, at which time, risk is transferred from the seller to the buyer.  This applies irrespective of who chooses the carrier.


 


The responsibility for insuring the item for loss or damage rests with who is at risk.


 


If the person at risk chooses not to insure, and the item is lost or damaged, the person at risk may still have a right of recovery against either the seller or carrier, but only if the loss or damage was as a result of the other partyโ€™s negligence.


 


Now the above principles apply to all on line transaction, including eBay, and apply irrespective of the payment method used (credit card, PayPal, Paymate, cheque, money order, cash, bank direct debit).


 


So how does the above fit together when it comes to the principle players in an eBay transaction โ€“ buyer, seller, Australia Post, and PayPal.


 


PayPal


 


The PayPal User Agreement clearly states that when it comes to Buyer Protection, it is not a policy of insurance.  Instead if an item is not received, the agreement makes it clear the protection is limited to assisting the buyer to recover the monies paid.  However the same policy also clearly states, if the item is not received and the seller can prove postage then even if the item is not received, any claim may be decided in favour of the seller.  That if postage is proved, the outcome is a finding of no right to recover by the buyer.


 


The above is then replicated in the User Agreement under the heading Seller Protection.  That is when it comes to a buyers claim that the item was not received, the seller Protection policy acknowledges, if postage is proved, the buyer has no right of recovery against the seller


 


As to the kind of proof that PayPal will accept, initially it was limited to registered post, but over the years, as more and more decisions were disputed, PayPal has been required to accept other forms of proof, to the extent that now, if the seller pushes hard enough, they will accept a post office receipt showing something was sent to the postcode in which the buyer is located.


 


Finally if the outcome is no right to recover, then the buyer may still be entitled to a discretionary payment, however the indications are, PayPal are becoming more and more reluctant to make these payments.


 


Australia Post


 


Like any business, Australia Post (AP) is liable for any loss or damage caused to any item in its care if that loss or damage is as a consequence of negligence by one of its officers or agents.


 


Like most modern businesses, AP has a discretionary claims process.  That is if the claim meets specific criteria, then they will pay the claim without the requirement for the buyer to take them to court.


 


In the past, when a claim for items lost in the post was lodged, if the item was sent regular post, AP would make a discretionary payment up to $50, or if it was sent registered post, to the extent of the insurance/extra insurance  purchased, and if the actual value of the item lost or damaged was more than the cover paid, then AP would only pay the extra if the buyer took them to the small claims court/tribunal.


 


However, due to an increase in number of lost article claims, over the past couple years AP has introduced initiatives which allow it to record when every parcel and post pack  sent regular post both enters and leaves the system.  The result, they found that in nearly all cases where items were  reported as lost, that loss occurred  after it was recorded as delivered. 


 


As a result, AP no longer includes items sent regular post in its discretionary claims process, which in turn means,  if the buyer wants AP to compensate them for that loss, they have to take them (AP) to court.


 


Sellers


 


Whereas the actual claimant for lost items was the buyer, the AP discretionary claims process required the seller to initiate the claim, with the expectation that, if the claim was paid, to pass on that payment to the buyer.


 


In the past, where a claim was lodged, as it was virtually certain that compensation would be paid, most sellers, simply cut the process short by reimbursing the buyer from their own funds and then keeping the compensation paid by AP.


 


Today, as the chances of the claim being accepted are slim to say the least, itโ€™s now for every seller to decide for themselves if they are going reimburse the buyer out of the own pocket; and where the AP data shows the item was lost after it was delivered, with most sellers I know now deciding not to.


 


Buyers


 


The impact that the above has on buyers is as follows:


 


It is the buyerโ€™s responsibility to insure their purchase whilst it is in transit and if they donโ€™t, irrespective of the payment system they use, if itโ€™s lost in transit and the seller can prove postage,   the buyer, has no right of recovery against the seller.


 


If the buyer pays for insurance, then irrespective if the buyer has established a right to recover against the seller or carrier, they will be compensated for that loss by your insurer.


 


PayPal Buyer Protection is not insurance.  Therefore, if postage is proved, the only way you will be compensated for your loss is if PayPal decides to make a discretionary payment, and the indications are, as more and more sellers are now able to prove postage,  they are becoming increasingly reluctant to make such payments.


 


Sort of puts the old โ€œPayPal protects the buyer, registered post protects the seller in a wholly new light.


 


 

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Sellers who say they accept no responsibility for loss in post

Please ignore the rather convoluted post, it has nothing to do with Paypal buyer protection policy which all buyers and sellers have to agree to abide by when they open their account.



Personally if a seller who says thast is offering the better product then I ignore their unenforceable terms and useuse Paypal. If there is an alternative seller who accepts responsibility willingly as they should then I will buy from them instead.

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Sellers who say they accept no responsibility for loss in post

Direct application of the principles contained in my convoluted post.


 


Buyer buys $200 item and pays by PayPal with the expectation that if it doesnโ€™t arrive PayPal will recover the total value (including postage) from the seller.


 


Seller advises buyer that due to the cost of the item they should pay to have it sent registered post with extra insurance cover to the value of $200.  Buyer acting on your advice refuses to pay the extra cost because โ€œPayPal protects the buyer, registered post protects the sellerโ€


 


Seller sends item by Click and Send, which PayPal accepts as proof of postage.


 


A week later buyer complains item was not received.  Seller checks on line and finds the parcel is recorded by Aust Post as delivered.


 


As the seller has proof of postage, PayPal is now not able to recover the cost of the claim from the seller.


 


Therefore, PayPal is left with two options.  Make a discretionary payment or tell the buyer โ€˜sorry because the seller has proved postage we are not able to recover, and as such you have lost your money.


 


In the past, when it comes to eBay transactions,  PayPal resolved the issue by making discretionary payments.  However, today the indications are they are becoming increasingly reluctant to do so, and in the future they may be discontinued entirely.  That is buyer protection will be limited to where the seller canโ€™t prove postage


 


So which part of the above do you say is wrong.

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Sellers who say they accept no responsibility for loss in post

If I really want the item for sale I just ask the seller to send by registered mail. It doesn't cost much and worth the peace of mind.It doesn't put me off, I just think they have been burned before.

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Sellers who say they accept no responsibility for loss in post

Thanks everyone for your comments.



Don't worry, pj, I have seen tall_bearded's lengthy explanation numerous times, and he appears to have a different opinion of PayPal protection than everyone else.



I'm interested to know if a buyer has ever won a case where the seller has proof of shipment and the tracking shows the item has been delivered, but the item did not actually arrive (eg may have been stolen from the front porch). I can't find anything in the PayPal policy which deals with this situation.



pj, would you point out to the seller that their terms are unenforceable, or just leave them in their blissful ignorance?

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Sellers who say they accept no responsibility for loss in post

As a buyer, I just ignore it. As long as I use Paypal I know I'm going to be compensated if it doesn't turn up - and I really don't care whether it's Paypal or the seller who pays.


Having said that, after 132 purchases I've never had anything go astray anyway.:-)

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Sellers who say they accept no responsibility for loss in post




A week later buyer complains item was not received.  Seller checks on line and finds the parcel is recorded by Aust Post as delivered.





what happens if there is online record of item lodged with AP, or in transit, but no scan of it being delivered. ie actually lost in transit or not scanned properly on delivery?



It also falls in a hole if AP deliver to wrong address, as delivery to correct address is implied rather than proven

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ASSUMPTION IS THE MOTHER OF ALL STUFF UPS!!
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