Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

[the_bob_delusion]

Billions of people around the world believes in God(s) because they believe certain miracle stories to be true? But can you truly verify a miracle historically?

By miracle, let's define it as an intervention by a supernatural being that defies natural laws. So not just something with a very low probability like winning tattslotto twice or recovering from a deadly cancer.  

So when Christians say history points to the resurrection of Jesus which is obviously a miracle. Do you think there's sufficient evidence to prove it happened?

If you don't believe Jesus Rose from the dead, or that Mohommad flew to Heaven on a winged horse, what evidence would convince you that it did indeed happen?

[i-once-was-bump]

I am way out of my depth entering this thread but I will ask anyway.

Didn't that new saint from Australia have to perform some miracles before she could be a saint?

Did she perform those miracles while she was alive or did they happen after she died?

If someone prayed to Mary McKillop to be cured of cancer and they were then cured of cancer did the prayer do the trick or was it Mary McKillop. In other words would praying to someone else have been just as effective?

And how the hell does anyone know if the person would have improved even without prayer?

[rabbitearbandicoot]

Bob wrote:" Yeah, we've tried to explain to you about evolution last time, obviously it hasn't worked but would prefer if you stick to the OP. So what's your opinion about the OP?"

Don't you think that's a tad condescending there Bob? A bit like saying : "We have already told you and you're too thick to understand" - as if evolution is set in concrete and every single part of it is absolutely spot on - especially as I have said many times that I believe in animals adapting (OK evolving) within their species to suit their environment. ALL I was saying above is that the very same EVIDENCE that you could use to prove evolution - I could use to prove creation.

Now, getting back to the OP - You seem to be stuck on the Resurrection of Jesus -  what Verification do you expect there to be? The sort of verification that archaeologists use when they dig up a  grave of a man who was 7'2" tall and immediately assume that there must have been a race of 7'2" people living at that stage in history?? Yes, I saw it on TV so it must be right.

[janeababe]

hey Bob.....   why is it that buildings can still be standing after thousand of years, relics still exist under hidden layers well within the ground, undamaged waiting to be discovered, how come fossils of creatures long extinct can be found...

but the Noahs Ark hasn't been discovered? YET!

I know that quite a few years ago, it was thought they found a small piece of Noahs Ark, but then (from memory, not fact) it was discredited...or something!...

.... and the Shroud of Turin (sp) is still under scrutiny regarding authenticity.

I don't believe in the Bible, or any words written in it. Definitely don't believe in Religion.

I do have Faith that there is a God. To me, a Faith is all I need. 🙂

[rabbitearbandicoot]

Bob wrote:" I've been studying this recently and the Christian apologist say that Jesus can only raise from the dead if there's a God."

What have you been studying? And what Christian Apologist say that?

Bob wrote: "My problem with that is the only reason to believe in a God is if Jesus did raise from the dead."

 - and that's the only reason you would believe there is a God? If there was proof that Jesus was raised from the dead? Open your eyes and look around you - Oh that's right - it's all just 50 trillion accidents.

[rabbitearbandicoot]

Good night.

[godsandmen]

Regarding miracles in the gospels, I am convinced that what we are actually reading are fictional stories that are based on OT miracle stories which were rewritten and applied to Jesus. It’s a sort of Midrashic rewriting of OT stories.  I don’t think any of the gospel writers knew much at all about Jesus, other than the stories of him being the messiah and rising from the dead. What they did believe though is that the OT was packed with “prophecies” about the messiah, so they used the OT miracle stories to create a narrative about what Jesus “must” have done, since they believed he was the messiah. He “must” have done them because they are in the OT, and in their minds, all those OT stories “looked forward” to the messiah. They certainly were not eyewitnesses to what happened, but they didn’t need to be. In their minds, they had a written record, in the Old Testament, of Jesus's life.  All they had to do was creatively mine the OT and had ready-made miracles for Jesus to have done. A couple examples, though there are many more:

- In 2 Kings 4:42-44, Elisha has a great many people to feed with only a few loaves of bread and a little other food. He delegates the task of feeding. There is a complaint that the quantity is too small. The feeding continues and everyone is fed. There is surplus bread left over. This older story from Kings has exactly the same plot as the feeding of the 5,000 - only the numbers are different.

-In 2 Kings 4:27-37 a distraught parent of an only child comes to Elisha just as in Mark 5:22-24 (which continues in verses 35-43) a distraught parent of an only child comes to Jesus, pleading for help.

• In both stories someone tries to discourage the parent from bothering Elisha and Jesus.

• In both stories it is unclear to some people in the story whether the child is dead ,dying or asleep.

• In both stories the child is in a house some distance away.

• In both stories a second source comes from the house and confirms that the child is dead. • In both stories Jesus and Elisha continue anyway to the house.

• In both stories the parent precedes Elisha or Jesus In both stories Elisha and Jesus seek a • high degree of privacy by turning people out of the house before their miracle.

This story in Mark is such an obvious rewrite of the story in Kings that if I remind you that Jairus in Mark 5 falls at Jesus's feet, you can guess what the parent in 2 Kings 4 did. SO MANY miracles and events in the life of Jesus are based on the OT, that it seems to me, this is how the life of Jesus was constructed, not from any actual knowledge of his life.

That the miracles of Jesus are fictional rewrites of OT stories is, to me, far more “verifiable” than that they ever happened at all. Which is more probable – that Jesus really did miraculously feed 5,000 people, or that this story was borrowed from the Elisha story and applied to Jesus?

This practice of mining the OT and reapplying OT stories to modern people and issues was common back then, as the massive body of Jewish midrashic literature attests.

This is also how much of the Book of Mormon was constructed, with OT stories being rewritten and applied to characters in the Book of Mormon. Christians routinely dismiss these stories in the Book of Mormon as being stolen from previous stories in the OT, but they fail to see that their own gospels were constructed in the same exact way.

Like it says in Ecclesiates - "There is nothing new under the sun".

[Anonymous]

Bump- praying is useless. studies have proved this

if there is no chance of a coincidence happening, no prayers will be answered

remember, god doesnt heal amputees. noone has every grown a new limb.

[**meep**]

you're still missing the point. I'm saying IF there's evidence, what evidence would convience you?

What has convinced you?

[the_bob_delusion]

What has convinced you?

What do you mean? I'm not convinced history thus far has proved the resurrection of Jesus and that he was the son of God. Do you agree with that statement?

[**meep**]

I meant, what is the reason for you being a Christian.