Dawkins on Down Syndrome foetus: "Abort and Try again"

[the_bob_delusion]

“Abort it and try again. It would be immoral to bring it into the world if you have the choice,” -Dawkins.

Discuss. 

[k0llectable5]

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@***super_nova*** wrote:

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@secondhand-wonderland wrote:

There are too many people in the world anyway, why create more?

I agree with most of your post apart from this one line.  Where do you get the idea that there is too many people in the world? I for one dont buy that for a minute.  Maybe some cities are becoming over populated but as for there being too many people on the planet, sorry but thats just not true imo.

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We cannot even feed properly the people who are here.  So many people in the world do not have access to clean drinking water.  How many more people do you think Australia can take?  Yes, we have lot of space  but  not enough water or arable land.  The way human race is multiplying is unsustainable.

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Who is the "we" you are referring to? Governments? supermarkets? local councils?

Why do they not have access to clean drinking water? Is it because theres not enough water? Or because there is no infastructure in place to supply clean water? 

Do you mean immigrants or Aussies? Australia has heaps of arable land left, as I said in my previous post the cities are becoming over crowded but thats happened because of mass immigration.  People who live in cities always say the world is over populated (their world maybe) but you will never convince me that the world is over populated.  

Assuming though that the world is becoming over populated what do you think would be a step in the right direction to curb this over population problem? 

"unsustainable" "sustainability" these are just buzzwords imo.

[lealta]

I would say promiscuous is someone who has had sex with several different guys in a short space of time and then fallen pregnant and so cant be sure who the father would be.  So being 100% pro choice how many abortions is it okay for someone like this to have?

It is not up to me to make that decision. 

I always thought morality was a fairly universal thing. It's knowing how to desipher the differences between right and wrong.  It's not subjective and has little, if anyting at all to do with going to church ect.

Morality is definitely not a universal thing.  Many people believe that having one abortion is immoral.  Many people think that sex before marriage is immoral.  Many people think that the gay lifestyle is immoral.  There are many people out there who DON'T think these are immoral.

Yes, we can all discern right from wrong when it comes to things like stealing or murder.   But there are a lot of topics on morality, that ARE subjective.  Do you think abortion is immoral?

[the_bob_delusion]

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@isgodnu wrote:

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@**what_would_bob_do** wrote:

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Is killing always wrong? And also be deserving of punishment?

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No. Is having a child now considered a punishment?

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Actually you implied abortion is murder and committing suicide murder when you said it's double murder. Did I quote you properly?

So what would you say is an appropriate punishment for abortion?

[k0llectable5]

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@lealta wrote:

It is not up to me to make that decision. 

Agreed. I was just wondering though about your opinion on this seeing as you are 100% pro choice.  Because I would assume that being 100% pro choice would mean that in your opinion someone like the hypoyhetical person I have created would be able to have as many abortions as they need to have totally guilt free and without consequence.

 Morality is definitely not a universal thing.  Many people believe that having one abortion is immoral.  Many people think that sex before marriage is immoral.  Many people think that the gay lifestyle is immoral.  There are many people out there who DON'T think these are immoral.

So moralistically speaking who is right and who is wrong? I guess these days there is a grey area regarding those points you have mentioned. 

Yes, we can all discern right from wrong when it comes to things like stealing or murder.   But there are a lot of topics on morality, that ARE subjective.  Do you think abortion is immoral?

I think it's immoral in certain instances, but in other cases I think it's totally justifiable.  

I know women who have had abortions some for personal reasons and some for birth defect reasons.  Every one of them has had a very hard time recovering from the procedure (not physically but emotionally and psychologically) The question of "what could have been" always remains with them to this day...

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[lealta]

Agreed. I was just wondering though about your opinion on this seeing as you are 100% pro choice.  Because I would assume that being 100% pro choice would mean that in your opinion someone like the hypoyhetical person I have created would be able to have as many abortions as they need to have totally guilt free and without consequence.

I can give you my opinion on a person having several abortions.  I do think it's pretty stupid in this day and age, for a person to have several unwanted pregnancies.  There are too many ways to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.  But I don't believe anyone should stop the woman in your scenario, from having as many as she chooses..  As long as abortion is legal, we don't have the right to tell her how many she can have.  As far as guilt.  That again is not something that I can judge.  It's an individual thing.

So moralistically speaking who is right and who is wrong? I guess these days there is a grey area regarding those points you have mentioned.

Yes, it is a grey area, hence my comment that in many case morality is subjective.

I think it's immoral in certain instances, but in other cases I think it's totally justifiable.

But there are others who think it is totally immoral to have an abortion for ANY reason.  They would think that your opinion is immoral.

I know women who have had abortions some for personal reasons and some for birth defect reasons.  Every one of them has had a very hard time recovering from the procedure (not physically but emotionally and psychologically) The question of "what could have been" always remains with them to this day...

I would imagine this could very well be true.  Which makes me think that a lot of thought goes into most women's decision to have an abortion.  For most women, I would think it's an agonizing decision.  Yes, there are some women who don't think twice about having the procedure.  But I don't think it's the majority.

[ruloinfovoter]

In all the abortion topics, I've never seen anyone say that in the case where it is to save the life of the mother, that that is immoral.

[katydidthat]

There have been a couple of recent cases in Ireland ...

[lealta]

In all the abortion topics, I've never seen anyone say that in the case where it is to save the life of the mother, that that is immoral.

My comments had to do with the topic of aborton in general and not with what people on these boards have to say.  As far as the immorality of having an abortion to save the life of the mother.  Even your Catholic Church does not condone this.

In 1930 Pope Pius XI ruled out what he called "the direct murder of the innocent" as a means of saving the mother. And the Second Vatican Council declared: "Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

Is it ever permissible to take an innocent human life?

From the very beginning, the Church has answered, "No." While saving the life of the mother is undoubtedly good, we cannot do evil that good may come of it, and the taking of an innocent human life is objectively evil.

[k0llectable5]

Thanks Lealta for taking the time to explain your position on this issue, I appreciate it 🙂

And I do think you are 100% correct in saying that in some cases morality is subjective, and I am now convinced of that thanks to you.

I have enjoyed (even though it is a dark topic) discussing this with you.

[ruloinfovoter]

..."your Catholic Church"...  

When a woman's life is at stake the Catholic Church doesn't consider it immoral if a procedure results in the death of the unborn.  

The Catholic Church considers abortion the intentional destruction of innocent life.

If a woman's life is at stake, it is not an intentional destruction of innocent life to perform procedures that save her life.  Therefore, it is moral.