Senate inquiry into Halal certification.

[daydream**believer]

Brilliant.

Whether people support halal certification or not, there are lots of people with lots of concerns so its time to investigate it all.

http://www.3aw.com.au/news/bernardis-inquiry-into-food-certification-schemes-20150514-gh1c32.html

Here are the reasons i am against halal certification and the questions i want answered.
1. Why are the fees paid by businesses for halal certification kept secret? Why do the businesss have to sign non disclosure agreements?

2. Why are there 20+ privately run halal certification companies in Australia, all charging whatever amounts they want, when Indonesia only has 1 Government run halal certifier? If foods need to be halal certified, then let the Government run it and let the money go back into the whole Australian community.

3. For meat to be halal, the animal needs to be slaughtered a certain way, throat slit while animal is conscious by a Muslim. Yes, there are some abattoirs that use a reverse stun but, from what i have researched, there are at least 15 abattoirs in Australia that slaughter animals using no stun. It is barbaric. This video is very graphic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAQJ-FZo1cA

4. Australia is a predominantly Christian country, so why are we being forced to eat meat that has been prayed over to a "god" that we dont even recognise?

5. If halal certification is supposed to help Muslims recognise what they can and cant eat, then why do so many companies that pay for the certification stamp choose not to display it on their products?

6. Why are abattoirs paying a certification fee and then packing all the meat in one truck and delivering it to butchers and supermarkets who then put it all in the one fridge and display it all in the one display fridge. Once pork products are shelved, stored or transported with other meats, the other meats immediately become non halal anyway. So Aussie Muslims cant eat it anyway.

7. We are told halal certification monies goes towards to building of more mosques and Islamic schools. We know that there are quite a few mosques where the hatred of Australia is preached. As for Islamic schools, the same schools where a principal has said that girls are forbidden to run in races because it will cause them to lose their virginity. Do we need schools like that here?

8. In Canada halal certification money was found to be used to fund organisations linked to extremist organisations. I have no doubt that would be happening here as well.

9. Halal is a part of sharia law and we DO NOT want any part of Sharia law in Australia.

So, what would i like to see? Id like halal certification to be a Government run organisation. Id like every business who pays for halal certification to have to display the stamp on their products. I want all Australian abattoirs to stun before killing. That would be a nice start

[icyfroth]

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@i-need-a-martini wrote:

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@icyfroth wrote:

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@i-need-a-martini wrote:

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@icyfroth wrote:

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@azureline** wrote:

The difference between Halal and Kosher??

yes, Halal = Muslim

Kosher = Jewish.....

I am sure everyone knows that.

You put forward something with nothing to back it up............. that is an opinion /assumption, not a fact.

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There are actually a lot of similarites between Halal and Kosher.

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Except that meat is not kosher if the animal has been stunned prior to slaughter. I will repeat, the animal needs to be slaughtered alive. No stunning.

But a stunned slaughter is permissable in Islam halal and very little halal meat falls outside of this.

Well seeing this is how most meat in Australia is slaughtered,  why the need for Halal certification?

Therefore there is a big difference in regards to humane treatment of animals.

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Halal animals need to be killed instantly, need to be bled out quickly and the spinal cord can't be touched.

In most abbotoirs, stunned animals can hang around half dead until they get to where they need to be in the production line. Or the bleed out can be what kills them instaed of the cut. As long as they are stunned and they can't feel the pain of a bad slice, then the law covers them. That is not acceptable practice in halal slaughter. 

Certification means that the methoid of slaughter can be audited to confirm its halal status.

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@i-need-a-martini wrote:

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@icyfroth wrote:

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@i-need-a-martini wrote:

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@icyfroth wrote:

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@azureline** wrote:

The difference between Halal and Kosher??

yes, Halal = Muslim

Kosher = Jewish.....

I am sure everyone knows that.

You put forward something with nothing to back it up............. that is an opinion /assumption, not a fact.

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There are actually a lot of similarites between Halal and Kosher.

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Except that meat is not kosher if the animal has been stunned prior to slaughter. I will repeat, the animal needs to be slaughtered alive. No stunning.

But a stunned slaughter is permissable in Islam halal and very little halal meat falls outside of this.

Well seeing this is how most meat in Australia is slaughtered,  why the need for Halal certification?

Therefore there is a big difference in regards to humane treatment of animals.

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Halal animals need to be killed instantly, need to be bled out quickly and the spinal cord can't be touched.

Ok well I'm no slaughterer but I don't see how you kill an animal instantly with a throat cut. However quickly it bleeds out, still isn't instant death.

In most abbotoirs, stunned animals can hang around half dead until they get to where they need to be in the production line. Or the bleed out can be what kills them instaed of the cut.

As long as they are stunned and they can't feel the pain of a bad slice, then the law covers them. That is not acceptable practice in halal slaughter. 

So the animal must be fully conscious and feel the pain of dying for it to be Halal? 

Certification means that the methoid of slaughter can be audited to confirm its halal status.

Oh yes I see that now.

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[wayward216]

I don't have any real problem with Halal slaughter where a reversible stun is used, although I'm not sure whether you're aware of the fact the halal process is designed specifically so that death is the result of exsanguination. They aren't killed instantly, even on a perfect kill they aren't killed instantly so I've no idea where you get your information, but it's wrong.

Without stunning an animal will die in around four seconds in a perfect cut, which rarely happens. In many instances an animal may feel conscious pain for up to 30 seconds after the cut is made. So what I do have a problem with are the twenty or so abattoirs in Australia that slaughter both Kosher and Halal without stunning under religious exemptions. Yes these are far less than those slaughtered with a reversible stunn, but at the end of the day, and even on very conservative estimates, we're still talking thousands of animals each year. I also have a problem with the many unstunned halal slaughters occuring in countries such as brazil where unstunned halal slaughter does occur in very high volume.

http://www.mla.com.au/Research-and-development/Search-R-D-reports/RD-report-details/R-and-D-Report-D...

Also if you read Temple Grandins work you'll also see her finding show pain is far less likely in Kosher slaughter than the Halal method (which is different)

A study done in New Zealand in 2009 shows that slaughter without stunning causes pain. A new EEG (brainwave) method was used, which can determine when an animal is feeling pain. In these experiments, lightly anesthetized calves were cut with a very sharp knife that was 24.5 cm long. The weight of the calves was 109 to 170 kg. One reason why the calves were lightly anesthetized was to prevent animal movements (movement artifact) from changing and distorting the EEG patterns. The experiments showed that the calves would have been experiencing pain during the cut (Gibson et al, 2009 ab).

The knife used in this experiment was much shorter than the special long knives that are used in Kosher slaughter. The use of a shorter knife may possibly have had an effect on the painfulness of the cut. The author has observed that shorter knives, where the tip of the knife gouges into the wound during the cut, will cause struggling. An animal may also struggle when the wound closes back over the knife during the cut. Since the calves were anesthetized, it was impossible to observe behavioral reaction during the cut. From reading the methods sections in the papers, it was not possible to determine if the wound was held open during the cut, which may help reduce pain. The knife used in this experiment was similar to many of the knives the author has observed being used for halal slaughter. The special long knife used in kosher slaughter is important. When the knife is used correctly on adult cattle, there was little or no behavioral reaction (Grandin, 1992, 1994). Barnett et al (2007) reported similar reactions in chickens. Only four chickens out of 100 had a behavioral reaction. Grandin (1994) reported that the behavioral reaction of cattle was greater when a hand was waved in their faces compared to well done Kosher slaughter. All of the cattle were extensively raised animals with a large flight zone. They were all held in an upright position in a restraint box. The results of this study clearly show that the use of a knife with a 24.5 cm long blade definitely causes pain. Another factor that may have had an effect on pain was the use of a grinding wheel to sharpen the knife instead of a whet stone. There is a need to repeat this experiment with a Kosher knife and a skilled shochet who obeys all the Kosher rules for correct cutting.

[i-need-a-martini]

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@icyfroth wrote:

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Halal animals need to be killed instantly, need to be bled out quickly and the spinal cord can't be touched.

Ok well I'm no slaughterer but I don't see how you kill an animal instantly with a throat cut. However quickly it bleeds out, still isn't instant death.

A sliced throat is the quickest way to kill an animal. Or a human for that matter. It has to be precise - the jugular vein.

In most abbotoirs, stunned animals can hang around half dead until they get to where they need to be in the production line. Or the bleed out can be what kills them instaed of the cut.

As long as they are stunned and they can't feel the pain of a bad slice, then the law covers them. That is not acceptable practice in halal slaughter. 

So the animal must be fully conscious and feel the pain of dying for it to be Halal? 

Where have I said this? In fact I have said the opposite. All animals (halal or not) are stunned prior to slaughter. The difference with halal and your run-of-the-mill butchering is that halal requires that the animal die IMMEDIATELY after stunning. The whole POINT of halal slaughter is that the animal must NOT feel pain. If they do, then the slaughter is not halal.

With standard slaughters, animals can hang around for however long it takes half dead. The law finds this acceptable as long as the animal is still stunned.

But haven't I already said this??

Certification means that the methoid of slaughter can be audited to confirm its halal status.

Oh yes I see that now.

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 My comments in red.

[wayward216]

Here's an example of halal slaughter Brazil style

"Minerva, the third biggest producer and exporter of beef in Brazil, has a dedicated halal slaughter plant. Here cows are ushered into an enclosure where they are struck on the head with a hammer and collapse on the floor — dizzy but alive. The slaughterer, a Sudanese Muslim man, utters the word "Bismallah" (in the name of Allah) before he cuts their jugular veins with a sharp knife so the animals die quickly and their blood drains out in compliance with halal customs."

http://www.unstunnedhalal.com/news/view/?id=43

[i-need-a-martini]

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@wayward216 wrote:

Here's an example of halal slaughter Brazil style

"Minerva, the third biggest producer and exporter of beef in Brazil, has a dedicated halal slaughter plant. Here cows are ushered into an enclosure where they are struck on the head with a hammer and collapse on the floor — dizzy but alive. The slaughterer, a Sudanese Muslim man, utters the word "Bismallah" (in the name of Allah) before he cuts their jugular veins with a sharp knife so the animals die quickly and their blood drains out in compliance with halal customs."

http://www.unstunnedhalal.com/news/view/?id=43

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You are reading rubbish from sites with an agenda.

Brazil have exactly the same laws that we do in reagrds to stunning prior to slaughter.

[i-need-a-martini]

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@wayward216 wrote:

Here's an example of halal slaughter Brazil style

"Minerva, the third biggest producer and exporter of beef in Brazil, has a dedicated halal slaughter plant. Here cows are ushered into an enclosure where they are struck on the head with a hammer and collapse on the floor — dizzy but alive. The slaughterer, a Sudanese Muslim man, utters the word "Bismallah" (in the name of Allah) before he cuts their jugular veins with a sharp knife so the animals die quickly and their blood drains out in compliance with halal customs."

http://www.unstunnedhalal.com/news/view/?id=43

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Not to mention that you have contradicted yourself.

In one post you say they die of exsanguination. But here you say they die quickly with a sharp cut to the jugular.

Confused much?

[i-need-a-martini]

And what fascinates me more is that this is still all about the supposed inhumanity of halal slaughter.

Even though we know that halal slaughter in Australia IS deemed humane.  And we know that halal accept stunning. And the way the animals are stunned and killed is way more humane than standard meat slaughter in this country.

But not a word against kosher slaughter. Even though I keep bringing it up lol. And even though we know that kosher slaughter is anything BUT humane because they do NOT accept stunning AT ALL.

And still...and still...and still... it is always about halal.

Yet somewhere up there /\ /\ /\ /\ you tried to convince me you weren't biased much lol. 

[i-need-a-martini]

http://www.mla.com.au/Research-and-development/Search-R-D-reports/RD-report-details/R-and-D-Report-D...

Did you honestly think I wouldn't read this? And were you hoping to provide something academic to show it proved your point but had your fingers crossed that noone would open the link?

And more to the point, this report (which is primarily about stress levels on meat quality) does not back up a single thing you have said lol.

Also if you read Temple Grandins work you'll also see her finding show pain is far less likely in Kosher slaughter than the Halal method (which is different)

A study done in New Zealand in 2009 shows that slaughter without stunning causes pain.

So kosher unstunned is less painful or...or... - what is with these contradictions!

And as the the latter statement - Umm...der.

Lucky for us halal animals ARE stunned in this country. Unlike kosher animals. Aye? 

[wayward216]

hahaha site with an agenda?

Mate you're so focused on saying no no no all the time you've lost sight of reality. You are correct, Brazil does have the same exemptions we have that allow unstunned slaughter, however their rules, while the same for their domestic market, are broader for their export market.


http://www.halalhmc.org/userfiles/file/NewsLetters/issue11.pdf

Mr Ludwig says the World Organisation for Animal Health does not require animals to be stunned before they are slaughtered, but the practice will be strongly encouraged.  "We don't ourselves (Australia) require stunning domestically so it's a bit hard to enforce that on other countries," he said.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-21/new-live-export-rules/3591842

And this from one of Australia's leading Halal certifiers: 

5. STUNNING:

ICWA is opposed to stunning of animals before slaughter on religious grounds, because generally speaking the present methods of stunning in Australia are not right from Islamic point of view.  Abattoirs have been advised to take steps towards removal of stunning and its replacement with straining devices such as koshers box in respect of cattle and the restrainers in respect of small stock.  We have allowed them time during which this could be achieved.  In the meantime, all ICWA approved slaughtermen are required to make sure that in case stunning of animal is taking place the following conditions are rigidly enforced:-

1. In case of cattle the gun used is properly adjusted and modified (which should only knock the animal as unconscious) concussion device and not a penetrating pistol nor the normal mushroom head gun.
2. The slaughter takes place on the floor whilst the animal is still alive.
3. In case of an animal who clearly shows that it has not been stunned properly a red tag around its neck should be used as it is unacceptable for Halal purposes.  Such rejected animal should be counted and disposed of separately from Halal carcasses at all stages.  The clear sign of an animal not stunned properly is that there is a hole in the skull and blood is coming out.  That means that the animal has been fatally wounded by a wrong stunning method.
4. That after slaughtering the animals should be allowed sufficient time to die as a result of bleeding and not processed until death has taken place.

[wayward216]

Do you even read what you post?
So now you're arguing that quickly must somehow be instant? I'll leave the confusion squarely on your shoulders.