Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

queenslander-one
Community Member

I have today had a Paypal chargeback for an item said not recieved by Ebay/Paypal. Have advised the FOS as Paypal under Ebay's instruction have removed money from my account when I had Proof of Postage. (Photograph of item correctly addressed and Postmarked by my Postmaster. Waiting to hear the outcome.

Copy of my response to Ebay/Paypals removal of funds below.

 

Hi I sent the buyer a photo of the item posted at the Post office on the 5th Feb to his Paypal Address (Please see my Ebay emails sent) or can supply again to Ebay.

Also under Australian law item 101 of Australia post rules. 101 Articles carried by post to be taken to be Australia Post’s property.

Quote For the purpose of any legal proceeding or action in relation to an article carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the article shall be taken to be, while it is being carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the property of Australia Post.

 

In Australia, the seller is not legally responsible for delivery, only postage, therefore proof of postage is what is required Also under Paypal rules.

What is proof of shipment? • The date the item was sent; and

•An official acceptance by the shipper, such as a postmark or online status. (Status that shows the item was delivered is also acceptable.) It must also include either: •The recipient’s delivery address, showing at least the state, city and postcode (or international equivalent); or •A receipt from Australia Post showing at least the recipient’s suburb, city or postcode (or international equivalent).

If money is removed by Ebay from my Paypal account over this correctly sent item I WILL be lodging a complaint with the Financial Services Ombudsman. Ebay if it wants to provide an insurance service for so called non delivered items can but not at my expense.

 

Will see how I fair

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Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

Not quite the same. They are not using a 3rd party for carriage.

 

Talk to the postage ombudsman.

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Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

I will be. I would still like to know how they can say delivered, when it required a signature. I am home all day everyday and dont have flat mates.

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Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

You obviously still haven’t got your head around the principals involved.

 

The Guarantee is eBay’s Guarantee, and unlike a PayPal Buyer Protect where a refund was contingent on the buyer establishing a right to recover, the Guarantee provides a refund in the absence of right to recover.  Furthermore, what is wrong with a seller turning around to a buyer and saying, the transaction was insured. So just put in a claim with eBay and they will pay you.  That is, why should a seller knowing that the transaction was insured pay the buyer out of their own pocket, especially when the transaction was insured they committed no wrong – they sent it using the service that the buyer paid for, and as such, whatever happed to it from that point onwards was well and truly outside of their control.  So why should they refund the buyer out of their own pocket because someone else stuffed up

 

As for retaliatory action by eBay.  EBay know me.  They know me by name and they know which are my buying and selling accounts  They also know that I amongst the other strategic thinkers were instrumental in bringing to an end eBay policy initiatives such as compulsory PayPal and PayPal as the only payment option on the eBay site. The point, I over the years, have done more long term damage to eBay’s bottom line than this one dispute by Queenslander-one ever will, yet I have yet to find one instance where eBay has taken retaliatory action against me. 

 

Why?  Though sometimes the intellect of the persons running this rock show is, well let’s just say suspect, they are not that stupid. Not that stupid because, when it comes to the regulators they know they have few (if any) friends, and if that kind of behaviour could be proved, it would provide the excuse to come down on them hard  – very hard

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Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

its simple the law needs to be changed   [why would you buy anything to be delivered if the law states once you post it or give it to a courier its classified as delivered [too many letters and parcels go missing every week  ,if somebody could put the figure on here thanks, at least ebaqy has changed the rules to elp the buyers ,and yes it might be abused   but at least with tracking that will cut it down a bit,

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Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

ah the bearded one has woken up   lol.

let me explain something to you ebay has sellers and buyers  if you dont have one then you dont have the other   you need both to run  sellers and buyers   most are both.  you say that even if you put a letter in a postbox its deemed as delivered ,sorry i mean the law says it is ,surely this is a grey area,does the law state that it must be paid for as carriers would not courier your article unless its paid for ,can you prove to me mr beard one that there is stamps on my letter[remember a post box is owned by aus-post ........

ebay by putting in a guarentee in place gives some protection with the buyer now , maybe too much   but something had to be done 

and for the queenslander you send hundreds of parcels out in a year maybe thousands in business there is allways going to be problems and if you go a whole year with one compaint thats going to cost you $10 [suck it up]  keep this buyer happy for all the sellers which he may go to.if it wasnt for ebay guarentee  he might never buy from you or anybody ese from ebay.

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Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

I have found over the years, due to the complexities involved, when dealing with forums such as these, that it is best to avoid citing specific parts of the legislation, as doing so simply over complicates the discussion.  

 

For instance there is now, collectively, nearly a hundred Acts (both State and Federal) dealing with consumer protection – the consolidated, Australian Consumer Law, various other Commonwealth legislations regulating financial institutions, the state based Sales of Goods Act, Act’s, special Acts dealing with the sale of second hand goods and separate acts dealing with the sale of second hand motor vehicles etc…, as well as ancillary Acts such as those dealing with how Acts are to be interpreted, and then there are the tens of thousands of regulations relating to these Acts as well of the tens of thousands of current authorities (case law – some over a hundred year old and often to the uninitiated,  contradictory) which define what the words in the legislation actually mean. Then of course there’s the fact that there is not one single government body which deals with consumer complaints.  Instead you have at least five including the various state Consumer Affairs departments, APRA. the ACCC, ASIC and let’s not forget the various quasi-judicial authorities such the various ombudsman services (financial, postal, etc…) as well as the various small claims courts who are there to adjudicate disputes.

 

The saving grace is the legal process has come a long way since wigs and gowns.  Today, it is accepted that everyone has a right to access their rights under the law and as such, over the years, when it comes to small claims,  the processes has been simplified to allow unrepresented applicants access by eliminating the need cite complex legislation and case law to get their point across.  That is, now it’s a simple case of providing concise statements of the facts as to what happened and if anything more is required, you will be given guidance as to what it is, and how to obtain it.

 

As for your problem, as I understand it, you bought something from Australia Post, paid to have it delivered by them with signature on receipt, and though you didn’t sign for it, they denied your claim on the basis their records show it was delivered.

 

Firstly davewill is absolutely correct – deemed delivery for the purposes of the Sales of Goods Act doesn’t apply.  Instead what you have here is a play on words, in that what they are actually saying is – ‘you have made a claim under our in-house discretionary, non-judicial, non-binding claims process and we find in connection with that process we have fulfilled all our legal obligations re delivery of the item you bought from us' – that is for the purposes of our policy it is “deemed delivered”.  They can do this because there is no legal onus on them to explain the meaning or context used in the decision made.  In fact, what is happening here has all the hallmarks of commercial practice used by a lot of companies when it comes to complaints’.  Reject it in the hope that the complainant won’t take it any further, and if they do, look at it again, and this time make a decision based on the actual facts.

 

 

So where from her.  As davewill recommends, lodge a complaint with the ombudsman.  Now the ombudsman knows from past experience that there have been a lot of cases where items have been delivered to the wrong address and signed for by someone not entitled to receive it.  They are also aware that in some cases, in fact too many cases, contractors are simply signing the docket themselves and safe dropping the item.  Therefore you need to concentrate on the signature part of the dispute.  That is on the day they say it was delivered, you were home all day, there was no one else in the house, and you didn’t hear the knock in the door (doorbell ring) and no card was left in the letter box.  Also demand to be provided with a copy of the signature and then provide a statement as to whether it is yours or not.

 

Now if the ombudsman finds that what you are saying is credible, then they will usually find that the most probable reason why you didn’t receive it was because of Australia Post/Contractor negligence, and if they make that finding you will get you money back.  But, my guess is, once the complaint is lodged, very shortly thereafter, Australia Post will reverse their decision, if for no other reason than they are sick of getting a flogging from the ombudsman over this very kind of issue.

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Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

make up your mind mr beard one ,  first you say once you have given your parcel to lets say aus post   its clasified as delivered 

now you say to raffa   you have a case  when raffa was told bt aus post they delivered it [make up your mind  i am pulling out my hair]

i think what you are saying is this is the common law  but if you add this and that then the common law changes mmmmmmmmm

and you wonder why the courts are always full as nobody knows the answere

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Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

interesting davewi   surely when raffa broughht it from aus post retail department  they would of packaged it put an address on it and handed it to the posting section deemed to be te carrier    then there fore is deemed delivered if you go by mr bearded one 

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Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

ah so many posibilitys..

to the bearded one ... I go to a post-office   and buy a gift from there [these days they have more gifts than post products] then take it to the counter for posting and pay for it  ,  is that clasified as delivered    and if yes whats the difference with mr raffa

p.s you do know what a post office looks like these days  its just you have a big 0  in your feedback which tells me you dont send many parcels out. mmmmmmm

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Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

Let me introduce the realities of commerce.

 

Yes there can be no sellers unless there are buyers to buy the goods on offer.  But what good  is a fist full of dollars where there is nothing to buy.

 

There was a time when eBay was a vibrant marketplace.  A place where you could buy just about anything and everything.  Today it is a mere shadow of its former self.  So what happened?

 

Acts such as the Sales of Goods Act acknowledge that when it comes to buying and selling one is dealing with competing interests, and the worst thing that one can do promote one interest at the expense of the other.  Instead what is required is a reasonable balance between the two so that neither gets everything they want, but each is reasonably comfortable with what they lose. 

 

EBay forgot this basic principle.  Instead they adopted an attitude where, as long the buyer was here the seller would put up with just about anything.  Well they didn’t.  Instead, there came a point where the actual risk of doing business here was greater than the actual benefit derived and they started to leave, initially a few at a time, but then, over time, in ever increasing numbers.  Now it appears eBay is finally acknowledge this mistake, but in all likelihood it may be a case of too little too late.

 

So let’s take deemed delivery and see how to achieve a balance. 

 

The buyer owns the goods being delivered by carrier. 

 

Deemed delivery only applies where it is the buyer who decided either directly, or by inference, that the goods are to be delivered by carrier.  That is, if the seller forces the buyer to accept delivery by carrier even though the buyer is able too, or wants to pick it up, deemed delivery doesn’t apply.

 

As the goods are owned by buyer and as it was the buyer who decided they be delivered by carrier, it is for the buyer to choose the carrier and/or service to be used.  In doing so they can select one of the services on offer in the listing, or they can tell the seller to uses someone else, and if seller says no, (you must use one of the services listed) then deemed delivery doesn’t apply. 

 

Though the goods are owned by the buyer as soon as paid for, if anything happens to them before they are handed to the carrier the seller is liable. However once the item is handed to the carrier, as long as the seller has done every reasonably required to ensure their safe delivery, deemed delivery applies.

 

That is the buyer interest are preserved  not only because they get to select  the carrier and service, but also the seller must to do everything reasonably required to ensure safe delivery, and deemed delivery only applies if both criteria have been satisfied.

 

This is the way it has been ever since the first mail order parcel was sent and this is the way it ought to remain.  It ought to remain this way because the whole presses is founded on a very solid principle of equity.  The person who makes the decision should be held accountable for the consequences of the decision.  But of course I understand that these days such concepts are old school and have no place in modern society. Instead it’s a case of I buy something one line I done have take any reasonable precautions or apply even a moniker of common sense, I can demand to pay for the cheapest and least secure mode of delivery, and take no responsibility for the security of the place to which it has been delivered, and then if something goes wrong blame the seller and make them pay.

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