27-06-2014 02:38 PM - edited 27-06-2014 02:42 PM
If you've read the news today, you will have heard about the NSW women who died from electrocution due to a dodgy USB charger. The person who sold her the charger face 2 years jail and $800K fine. I've noticed that the chargers pictured in the news today are currently available on eBay and many have been sold. Fair Trading has advised everyone not to buy or use these, and to dispose of them if you have them in your possession. I wonder what eBay will do about this?
Story:
on 01-07-2014 08:05 AM
@cq_tech wrote:
@davewil1964 wrote:They are marketed as, and are, Earth Leakage Circuit Breakers. What you have been advocating this entire thread.
As you are fully aware, except in very limited circumstances, 240V will not kill anybody. An ELCB is an ELCB, stop trying to panic people.
That is absolutely incorrect, Dave. You're talking about plug-in circuit-breakers which cost upwards of $10 each from Bunnings and similar outlets. ELCBs and RCDs need to be hardwired into the electrical circuit because they require a neutral to function, as this is part of how they measure the current imbalance. The toroid compares the difference between the active and neutral conductors. A fuse socket does not offer this, as it is nothing more than a fusible link in the active conductor only.
It is therefore impossible to even design or manufacture a plug-in replacement ELCB for a ceramic fuse socket. Also, I'm not trying to panic anybody, but for you to suggest that 240VAC will not kill anybody except in very limited circumstances is just plain wrong and I think it's very irresponsible of you to suggest otherwise.
My other half - who has a D-licence - appears to be on the same page as you cq. I couldn't get onto the Energy Safe Victoria website yesterday (and even this morning). Other half suggests (in view of the conflicting information being shared in this thread) that I contact ESV or even the ETU. And I will be getting more quotes for a Safety Switch install.
on 01-07-2014 09:33 AM
If its any help, this house had a outside fuse board (one of those wooden boxes on the wall) with ceramic fuses.
The electrician removed all the fuse section, only the meter is in the box. Inside the house is a plastic square box on the wall with a safety trigger switch, a switch for lights, stove, hot water and the orange kill switch.
It was around the $1800 mark for him to do this (and remove two power points). This was at least 8 years ago. Last year they returned and put in the blue & white safety switch for $280.
I get the electrician to come four times a year (with each season change) where he tests everything with his meters. He removes any light switches and puts testing gear on the wires, he removes any light globes left here and tests the power in (l think, no idea but he sticks tools inside the wires...scares the living daylights out of me waiting for him to turn to toast ). He also runs an experienced eye over anything electrical and gives me advice if he thinks there is an issue. This quarterly visit is $175 but l think that might be mates rates from the company.
on 01-07-2014 09:51 AM
@ambridgebuckskins wrote:If its any help, this house had a outside fuse board (one of those wooden boxes on the wall) with ceramic fuses.
The electrician removed all the fuse section, only the meter is in the box. Inside the house is a plastic square box on the wall with a safety trigger switch, a switch for lights, stove, hot water and the orange kill switch.
It was around the $1800 mark for him to do this (and remove two power points). This was at least 8 years ago. Last year they returned and put in the blue & white safety switch for $280.
I get the electrician to come four times a year (with each season change) where he tests everything with his meters. He removes any light switches and puts testing gear on the wires, he removes any light globes left here and tests the power in (l think, no idea but he sticks tools inside the wires...scares the living daylights out of me waiting for him to turn to toast ). He also runs an experienced eye over anything electrical and gives me advice if he thinks there is an issue. This quarterly visit is $175 but l think that might be mates rates from the company.
Thanks for outlining what you have had done. I get the impression now that electricians are really trying to "sell" the switchboard upgrade thing. Not many seem happy to just quote for a Safety Switch. I am waiting for someone sensible to come along and tell me that YES, we can get a Safety Switch even if we can't afford the whole box and dice switchboard upgrade. And that having a Safety Switch is better than having none at all.
on 01-07-2014 12:37 PM
Chezzy, to save any future argument about what does or does not constitute an ELCB and how they differ from circuit-breakers, I refer you to the Naval Electrical Engineering Training Manuals at http://electriciantraining.tpub.com/index.htm and suggest that you go to MODULE 03 - INTRODUCTION TO CIRCUIT PROTECTION, CONTROL, AND MEASUREMENT then have a read of Chapter 2 Circuit Protection Devices which will give you all the information you need to verify that what I've said above is completely correct.
In a household meter box, the fuses are simply links in the active conductor only, and while ceramic fuses can indeed be replaced with plug-in circuit-breakers of the type which Bunnings and other places sell for around $10 each, a circuit-breaker won't trip until the current load exceeds its rating, which may be 10A or 15A. Therefore, they do NOT offer any additional protection whatsoever to somebody who's unfortunate enough to come into contact with the active circuit, and electrocution will almost certainly result.
ELCBs and RCDs, on the other hand, need to be hardwired into both the active and the neutral circuits as they continually monitor and look for any imbalance between the two, and if so, they will immediately trip. The ELCB will typically trip if it detects an imbalance of as little as 30mA (i.e. 30 one-thousandths of an Amp) which is way too little current to stop a human heart from beating.
To reiterate, it is not even possible to manufacture an ELCB which plugs into the active circuit only because it needs to monitor BOTH the active and the neutral simultaneously, something it can't possibly do if plugged into a ceramic fuse-holder which protects only the active circuit. QED.
on 01-07-2014 01:43 PM
@cq_tech wrote:Chezzy, to save any future argument about what does or does not constitute an ELCB and how they differ from circuit-breakers, I refer you to the Naval Electrical Engineering Training Manuals at http://electriciantraining.tpub.com/index.htm and suggest that you go to MODULE 03 - INTRODUCTION TO CIRCUIT PROTECTION, CONTROL, AND MEASUREMENT then have a read of Chapter 2 Circuit Protection Devices which will give you all the information you need to verify that what I've said above is completely correct.
In a household meter box, the fuses are simply links in the active conductor only, and while ceramic fuses can indeed be replaced with plug-in circuit-breakers of the type which Bunnings and other places sell for around $10 each, a circuit-breaker won't trip until the current load exceeds its rating, which may be 10A or 15A. Therefore, they do NOT offer any additional protection whatsoever to somebody who's unfortunate enough to come into contact with the active circuit, and electrocution will almost certainly result.
ELCBs and RCDs, on the other hand, need to be hardwired into both the active and the neutral circuits as they continually monitor and look for any imbalance between the two, and if so, they will immediately trip. The ELCB will typically trip if it detects an imbalance of as little as 30mA (i.e. 30 one-thousandths of an Amp) which is way too little current to stop a human heart from beating.
To reiterate, it is not even possible to manufacture an ELCB which plugs into the active circuit only because it needs to monitor BOTH the active and the neutral simultaneously, something it can't possibly do if plugged into a ceramic fuse-holder which protects only the active circuit. QED.
Thanks CQ. My other half will have a far better understanding of this (and the manuals etc) - in fact some of what he has been saying/explaining to me mirrors what you have been!
At this point I am thinking more of human life rather than property damage etc. I am thinking this Safety Switch(RCD) would be a good start. I just need to find a sparkie willing to do this 'smaller' job 😉
on 01-07-2014 05:02 PM
on 01-07-2014 05:48 PM
Also, I'm not trying to panic anybody, but for you to suggest that 240VAC will not kill anybody except in very limited circumstances is just plain wrong and I think it's very irresponsible of you to suggest otherwise.
I've had it through the heart three times and I'm still here.
on 01-07-2014 05:54 PM
on 02-07-2014 07:56 AM
@cq_tech wrote:
Business must be pretty good in Melbourne if sparkies can afford to turn down the less profitable jobs like fitting RCDs to existing meter boxes, then. I'd probably be sticking with the ones in your local paper but you may need to ring quite a few before you find somebody who's prepared to do it for around $200 but I'm sure you will eventually. 🙂
I don't think it is that they are turning down the smaller/less profitable jobs so much, but more that they are taking the opportunity to recommend switchboard upgrades. Once I reiterated that we were after a Safety Switch supply and install (and NOT seeking a whole Switchboard upgrade) THEN they started quoting for what I was after. Several quotes around $275 to $300. Have also received one for $190...so they are out there 🙂
on 02-07-2014 11:09 AM