Purchase of caravan

[jaksensmummy]

I bid on a caravan and won. I rung the seller immediately to organise that I would be there to pick up item in a fortnight. There were no terms of the sale on eBay. The seller demanded a deposit to secure my purchase and I paid $500. In the description the caravan is REGISTERED UNTIL MARCH. I took my husband and father to view the caravan as we live just over an hour away. My husband and father took a look under the van and there is significant structural damage that is not mentioned in the description. The chassis is completely bent. In fact, from an engineer's point of view the whole structure would need to be rebuilt.

If I were to drive the van out of the driveway the police would put it off the road simply because it is unroadworthy. Therefore the caravan is not technically registered.

I had to ring the seller and tell him that I cannot purchase the van simply because of the unlisted damaged and the costs associated with restoring the van which was far more significant than described. The seller was incredibly rude and refuses to refund my deposit simply saying that he wrote "bidding is buying" on the bottom of his description. It's strange that he didn't respect that notion when I rang him to organise the logistics of picking up the van. Bidding obviously wasnt buying because he required money (and a substantial deposit I would say) to secure my purchase.

Now I am forced to take civil action in order to get my "deposit back" because he requested bank deposit. 😞

As a mother with a young family and a hearing impaired daughter on the Autism spectrum, we didn't have a lot of money to spend and the description was deceitful. I feel very flat!

[*crikey*mate*]

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@thecatspjs wrote:

OP - The seller demanded a deposit to secure my purchase and I paid $500.

As far as I can see the OP has only acted with goodwill, notwithstanding some poor buying decision making.

I still think there is room for negotiation before going any legal road ...

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there is ALWAYS room for negotiation.

and one can only hope for a great outcome, but how can eBay force this guy to give back the money?

She bid on this item for 7 days, so she knew about it for at least 7 days.

eBay advises that goods for pick up be inspected before payment, heck, even the seller advised this in his listing!

The buyer bid but did not inspect at any time before the auction ended.

At this stage, there is not even any indication that the buyer asked the seller any questions.

The seller admitted there was damage following an accident, but was not qualified to fix it, so no court will hold him responsible for it being SNAD - he has admitted he is not a professional.

Now, things that may help are proving SNAD

such as

the pictures of the van in the listing. Were these taken before or after the accident. (Is the tilting of the van bad enough to be detected in pictures? If yes, and he has used the wrong pictures, then that is some help for SNAD)

qualified proof that the van cannot be towed

etc etc

[*crikey*mate*]

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@thecatspjs wrote:

Lol - clearly some know more about the details of who said what, and did what, than the OP does.

Giving into a demand is not always viewed as mutally agreeable contract terms BTW. 

Lucky the law is not so black and white.

PS - you are quoting a post that I was in the midst of editing as it was incorrect - I think thats a bit unfair, so can you please stop quoting it, my post was incorrect and incomplete and I changed my post accordingly. Thank you.

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well, I'm sorry, but how was i supposed to know that you were editing it??????

they don't give you a warning when you quote a post that it is in the process of being edited!

I am going off exactly what the OP has said and what is contained in the listing.

Cats, the seller does not have to extend payment past 8 days if he doesn't want to.

The buyer was NEVER forced into or or demanded to agreeing to any terms. Who forced/demanded her to bid? Who forced/demanded her to make an offer on that van and continue to make offers on that van over a 7 day period until she was the highest bidder?

[thecatspjs]

Ebay has cancelled transactions for less, depends who you speak to, what content is in the messages etc etc .... just another avenue for consideration.

It is not too bad, so sad... yet..  Paypals not involved, so there are a lot of "matters" the OP can "raise" with the seller regarding aspects of the description that are incorrect or misleading, without having to provide proof FGS.     It is not in front of a tribunal at this point. 

The seller also has a bit of a dilema indeed, they have a caravan they can not resell for some time now - it is not theirs to resell if they do not seek a cancellation or go through a non-payment dispute.   giving the OP some potential further bargaining power.

[*crikey*mate*]

hey Cats

Spoiler

I am reasonably sure that you would have won our debate on Bailment if you had simply said "Bailment is formed on delivery". I'm not 100% prepared to concede defeat - yet - but I think that might be the hole in my argument - the buyer did not physically deliver the goods to the seller to mind/store - as yet I haven't found anything to say either way if that has to be physically or implied, and I haven't asked any of the legal peeps either - but going off the dictionary's definition, that's where the hole was and I am willing to consider that I MAY have been wrong.....

[thecatspjs]

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@lyndal1838 wrote:

What have unsafe payment methods got to do with anything.....paypal does not cover pickup items under any circumstances and there is no way that there could be any arguement that a caravan could be posted.

Also, paypal does not cover part payments, which is what the deposit was.

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Just noting that goods, including vehicles and caravans,  are freighted interstate every day of the week.

[lyndal1838]

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@thecatspjs wrote:

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@lyndal1838 wrote:

What have unsafe payment methods got to do with anything.....paypal does not cover pickup items under any circumstances and there is no way that there could be any arguement that a caravan could be posted.

Also, paypal does not cover part payments, which is what the deposit was.

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Just noting that goods, including vehicles and caravans,  are freighted interstate every day of the week.

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Quite so, but there would have to be a delivery charge shown on the invoice in that case.

[thecatspjs]

Thats good that you know that.  The way it read to me, and maybe others, was that you didn't realise caravans could be freighted.  

Think its best to nip potential furphies in the bud or they can actually get a bit out of control and others then base their advice on those furphies, such as the lithium battery situation and others.

[cq_tech]

Where's one of those grubby little 14yo arsonists when you need them? Hypothetically, If said caravan mysteriously burned to the ground prior to the completion of the contract, then the contract would immediately become null and void and the seller would have no option but to return the OP's $500 holding deposit.

[*crikey*mate*]

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@thecatspjs wrote:

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@lyndal1838 wrote:

What have unsafe payment methods got to do with anything.....paypal does not cover pickup items under any circumstances and there is no way that there could be any arguement that a caravan could be posted.

Also, paypal does not cover part payments, which is what the deposit was.

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Just noting that goods, including vehicles and caravans,  are freighted interstate every day of the week.

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that's a good point, however freight was never a consideration, the terms agreed upon in the contract were Pick UP. and from memory (but I could be wrong, as I haven't checked the listing again before writing this,) the seller did not offer freight or postage.

In context, I think the buyer thought that had she paid the deposit by PayPal that she would be able to get a refund, however because she had paid by bank deposit, she now had to pursue civil action to recover her deposit.

I'm guessing that was the context in which Lyn made the statement hence her stance that the seller is no worse a situation for having paid by bank deposit, as she would not have been able to raise a claim of any sort with PayPal anyway. Similarly, as there is no eBay protection Policy applicable to goods sold on the au site, there is no avenue for recourse via that avenue either.

Hence, in the context of payment and recovery of the "deposit", PayPal would not have constituted a safe payment method anyway.

However, I slightly disagree with that (just a little bit) I do think there would have been some Buyer Protection, but not in the way anticipated.

I think that if the buyer had paid through PayPal that they would have stronger proof and better documentation (or at least easier access to) of payment and what the payment was for. (ie I assume the invoice would have explicitly said something like "depoist for caravan" and obviously there is proof of who it went to etc).... It is probable that the payment would have been linked to the actual item/listing  (though I think for part payment a separate invoice would have been needed)

atm, it doesn't appear that the buyer has any proof of who she gave the money to, that they have received it, or even, if those two things can be established, what the money was for. (there is no receipt or acknowledgement of payment atm, so it's all down to battle of the bank statements/electronic transfer data and what that actually says)

An unsubstantiated bank deposit is a gift. I'm hoping the OP at least put her eBay ID or an item number or something linking the transaction to eBay and this van - it would help her a lot.

[thecatspjs]

Bank deposit slip of $500 to account in sellers name - or as I do, print out transaction details of electronic transfer at the time - plus ebay record of sale = quite easy to substantiate payment was not a gift.  

Its not hard to substantiate purpose of a bank deposit payment, its done regularly for tax purposes. I actually don't know why you are saying that ... its a bit of devils advocacy I suspect, which is JMO so no need to fret.

This is not even including any ebay messages between seller and buyer, nor any future messages between seller and buyer.