Trust on eBay, and the feedback system

[damien_pw]

I'm a long time eBay user, and like anybody, trust is probably my main concern. Can I trust the seller I am purchasing from? Can I trust the buyer bidding on my item to follow through? As a buyer, we have the feedback system to help us avoid those bad transactions. As a seller there's probably a little less protection - the options to screen buyers are a little limited, but that's another discussion.

So, as buyers, we rely on the feedback system. Personally, I try to avoid dealing with any seller having below 99% feedback. You may say that's a little harsh, but I work on the assumption that for every negative feedback a seller receives, there's probably a few more that they've been able to avoid. In fact, in the past I have had sellers drag out resolutions to the point where my abaility to leave any sort of feedback has expired (I'm pretty careful about this now).

Case in point, I won an auction recently. It was an item I didn't particularly need, but thought I would have a go as I wanted to try it, and the price was quite low ($1 no reserve auction on a fairly niche bit of camera kit). The seller had 100% positive feedback, there were only a few bids, and in the end I won the item at a very good price indeed. Moving along to the payment screen then, and found I was unable to pay for the item. Within a few minutes, the seller had cancelled the order. Reason: "I'm out of stock or the item is damaged". Sounds like a generic 'tick a box' excuse to me. There was no other communication from the seller.

Within a week, I noted that the item had relisted - no longer at $1 no reserve, but for $99 buy-it-now thank you very much. Exactly the same item (it was used, there were photos - the very same photos from the earlier listing). Perhaps I have an overdeveloped sense of moral outrage, but to my thinking, a seller on eBay should not get away with doing this sort of thing scott-free. So after a little research (googling 'ebay Seller cancelled after I won' seemed to do the trick), I decided that eBay would probably be do little to address my concerns, and the recommended course of action would be to leave negative feedback.

Now, I didn't lose any money on this transaction, it was just a little inconvenient to go through the bidding process, get excited about my win, and then try to pay for ten minutes before realising I'd been ghosted on the auction. After some thought I concluded that leaving neutral feedback would be fair. The feedback was something like "Won aucton. Seller cancelled, then relisted at higher price. Poor form". I thought that was quite fair (my wife said I should have left negative feedback, but in the absence of monetary lost, I did not think that justified). Anyway, I thought that was quite fair, and left it at that....

...until, some time later I wondered if the seller might have responded with counter-feedback. Like a dog with a bone who can't leave it alone, I had to have a look. I brought the seller profile up, clicked through to their feedback, and…wait a sec...where's my feedback?!? It was there before - where did it go?!?!? Nooooo way? Did they remove my terribly fair and factual, 80 character limited feedback?! DID EBAY ACTUALLY JUST REMOVE MY FEEDBACK, WITHOUT TELLING ME!!?!?!?!

I was pretty fired up after that. On to live chat then with my righteous indignation! I explained the situation, and how I felt that this was an abuse of trust and that the seller should at least face some form of penalty. Very quickly I was passed from one consultant to another, who informed me, "I did check the details [...] the seller appealed on the feedback which the system removed as there was no payment made."

"What?!?!", I choked out (well, this was a text chat, but I became livid in person)..."they cancelled the order within two minutes of me winning the auction, so of course no payment was made!!!! How was I supposed to pay?!?!?!". The conversation went on for a short while longer, but the general gist was, sorry, we can't do anything now, but we will put in a report as we can see that what you say is true. Can't tell you anything else...blah blah blah, privacy, blah blah blah. Case closed.

I should point out, I've over 1,000 transactions on eBay now...the vast majority as a buyer, and very rarely have I left negative or neutral feedback. In fact, after scrolling through the 1,106 feedback ratings I have left for others, I found two negatives and two neutrals. "Wow", you may well say, "you've been super lucky on eBay"! Well, it's not so much that. I have had more negative experiences than these few. Usually things are resolved, or the experience simply wasn't bad enough to drive me to diss on a seller. Sometimes I will simply not leave feedback at all. Only when there is truly bad behaviour on the seller's part will I go the mile and leave less than positive feedback.

So, how does eBay increase trust? If it's so easy for a party to (and let's call a spade a shovel here) lie, and have feedback removed on appeal with no communication whatsoever with the complainant, then how can we trust the feedback system at all? How many buyers and sellers are able to have negative feedback removed so easily? It could be argued that negative feedback impacts sales and adversely affacts eBay's business, but I'm sure that if the feedback system is not robust, then surely that also has a negative impact?

No easy answers I'm sure.

I should give some credit to eBay for live chat...the ability to get onto live chat now is a much better thing than we ever had in the early days of eBay, when it was very difficult to get any sort of answer to a question at all. At least there's some small sense that you may be heard by eBay.

[performance_parts_clearance_centre]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of malicious, entitled buyers out there... I copped one last night: he purchased an item on Friday morning, messages me on Saturday afternoon that I'm quick to take his money, slow to post, and that the postage charge is "rediclous".

I respond that the three business day handling time and postage charge were both clearly spelled out in the item description, and that he elected to purchase anyway. I also pointed out that his item was posted the same day as his purchase.

He responds with an abusive all-caps rant claiming that the item is rubbish, postage horrendous, that I'm a dodgy seller, and that he'll leave feedback to that effect.

On looking at his "Feedback left for others", there's a large number of negs and neutrals, along with a stack of "false positives", most containing a rant of some sort regarding Australia Post or courier companies, and all manner of other bizarre things. I guarantee he'll leave negative feedback for me, over a $5 item that was posted the same day he bought it.

Why should my seller account be brought into disrepute by that sort of plank?

I had one this week who swears that they didn't receive the item, despite tracking showing it delivered, and post office staff (who are well-acquainted with him) swearing that he picked it up - with CCTV video to back it up.

Another who opened an INR case for an item sent to the UK, and didn't close the case when the item was delivered. Happily, I had tracking, so I could ask Ebay to step in.

Yet another who purchased two related items - one-word postive left for one, neutral with some symbol I don't understand left for the other.

All beyond my control, yet all will run me foul of those who buy solely on feedback...

[damien_pw]

Thanks for the comment PPCC...this seems to point to the constant tension that exists between buyer and seller views on feedback. Of course, it's not nearly perfect, which is what I was hoping to discuss.

I am not a commercial seller myself, but the thought of having an undesirable buyer win one of my more expensive items is not pleasant. I am selling my own things, and it means I'm usually earmarking the dollars from that sale for personal expenditure. I have been fairly lucky though.

If it makes you feel any better, I cannot see anything in your feedback that would prevent me personally from purchasing from you (or perhaps that makes you feel worse  ;o). Your rating show's as an excellent 99.7% when I view it. Of the few negs/neutrals you have, one of them I see complains about customs duty (this is hardly your responsibilty, yet I still see it as a common complaint of buyers'), and another has merely inserted a beer icon (wha?!).

That said, if I was after an item that you stocked, and your feedback rating was - say - 98%, and Freddies Fast Car Parts had the same price but 100% feedback - I would go with Freddy no questions asked and I probably wouldn't dig deeply into the feedback system. Nothing personal, it's just my way of trying to maximise the chance of a happy transaction.

Many of us do realise that some people are simply ...<insert NSFW slur here>. How this can be handled in the broader scheme of a feedback system though? I'm not sure. Maybe any negative feedback should appear with a qualifier on it...the rate of positive feedback given by that particular buyer? Hmmm...

[performance_parts_clearance_centre]

Ahhh, it's a beer icon? Couldn't work out what it was! That one's actually shot himself in the foot a tad, even though he doesn't realise it - we're the manufacturer and sole distributor of that item; no way he'll ever be allowed to make a purchase from us again, either on Ebay or in "the real world"....

[damien_pw]

I thought it was a beer...can't understand why it wasn't positive then! Weird anyway. Sometimes I think people just push the wrong button.

Manufacturer and distro!! That's funny. Yes...thankfully the 'block buyer' list is still a thing, and I actually have grown my list to half a dozen or so users over the years. Fool me once...

[cezm]

---

@damien_pw wrote:

Interesting point. I also leave feedback most of the time. Noticed with one of my buyers recently that they hadn't left enybody feedback for about six months...some folks are giving up on it?

---

I believe buyers often regard ebay as just another online site. On most sites you purchase, pay and wait for delivery.

I do most of my buying online and have to remember when I purchase something via ebay that I need to go back in and leave feedback.

I confess to having forgotten a couple of times when I've bought something from a large business (due to a discount coupon on ebay) rather than directly from their site.

[shoppingbag*]

Your complaint rings so true to my own experiences, that I could have written it myself. Just a slight variation on the feedback that was removed. I received an item, definitely  "not as described" two side by side photos of what I purchased and what I received, could leave no doubt in anyone's mind. I grudgingly accepted a part refund rather than send the item back to India. I then left a neutral honest feedback, ( I felt they truly deserved a negative, but like you, I have only ever left a couple of those)  eBay then promptly removed my feedback.  When I complained to them, I was told that it was removed because the Seller had settled the case. All the while this board contains many instances of Sellers who are unable to get the most unfair feedback removed. It seems there are rules for some, and different rules for others. When you read the rules, eBay states that there are only three instances that feedback can be removed, and my feedback did not fall into any of these categories. Like you, nobody informed me that the feedback was being removed.

[countessalmirena]

I usually regard a feedback percentage of less than 99.5% (for a high volume seller) too low.

Looking through a seller's negatives over a 12-month period can be enlightening.

However, as you have realised, feedback may not tell the whole story on eBay.

I used to buy from sellers from all over the world, some of whom had never sold online before! I had a few problems (not many), but in the main those transactions were satisfactory. Feedback had an important purpose at that time, when the sellers on eBay were usually buyers as well.

Nowadays, I've become much more conservative when buying on eBay. At least partly that is due to how eBay itself has changed. It's also due to the rise in online scammers. I'm having to be a lot more sceptical about items listed for sale... To this day, I've still not found an authentic Chinese punch bowl (famille rose) from my desired period - at least, not one whose authenticity I 100% trust.

Your camera kit seller has brought a consequence upon himself, though. By choosing "I'm out of stock or the item is damaged" as the reason for cancelling the sale, they'd have received a defect. Too many of those, and their account would be very detrimentally affected.

It does seem that your seller was relatively inexperienced. I do agree that the neutral you gave was fair enough; however, as the sale was never actually finalised (due to the seller's instant cancellation), there is certainly validity to the view that there was no transaction.

For the seller's sake, I hope that they have learned not to list items for auction at a starting price at which they are not willing to sell. For your sake, I hope you find a wonderful "niche bit of camera kit" at an attractive price, and who knows? Come back to this thread and post some of the pictures you take using said camera kit...?

[springyzone]

You sound perfectly reasonable to me.

In my opinion I think your feedback should have stood.

As countess said, the seller may get some sort of defect on their selling account but when an auction is cancelled out of hand like this, a buyer should be able to leave a comment.

The fact you didn't (couldn't !) pay seems to be the sticking point as it is deemed a non transaction, which is true, but the problem is the exact item came up for sale again within days, just at a higher price. So the seller was just making excuses.

Unfortunately, it would take a human to investigate this, compare the photos and realise what has happened and with ebay, nearly everything is automated and when you do strike a human rep, the can be less than helpful.

I do think anyone who has been on ebay a while should know better than to start an auction at 99c and I don't blame some sellers who decide not to follow through on sales if they get an unrealistically low price but I do think they should have to take the consequences and that any feedback should stand.

[damien_pw]

Thanks for the comment springyzone. Yes, the heart of the matter here is the feedback system, and how buyers are informed of a seller's performance. It's an old problem I suppose, but this time the ease of feedback removal really made me cranky (hence the rant)!

I will say that, it was let slip in my conversations with support, the implication that this particular seller had more than one such strike.

As you say, because I couldn't pay, it's likely that automation took over (IF feedback != positive AND payment='false' THEN cancel feedback). In this way I expect a seller could do this sort of thing over and over again, without consequence, until such time as eBay investigates the high rate of transactions cancelled by the seller.

As you say, then perhaps a lesson regarding 99c auctions should have been learnt already, but apparently not. I myself do list some things at 99c still - these are items I am happy to get rid of regardless of final price, and items that I know will have a good level of interest from buyers. Sometimes people get a bargain, but I'm still happy enough to offload things I don't need. Other times I'm surprised to see an item get more than it probably should! I can't explain the psychology of that. eBay seems to offer an increasingly random range of recommended starting prices these days, and actually very rarely seems to suggest that I start an auction at 99c.

[damien_pw]

Thanks for your comment countessalmirena.

Another eBayer who has exacting feedback standards (higher than mine perhaps)! I think the reasoning for me is that, for every negative a seller receives, there's possibly a couple more that they've managed to avoid.

Yes...viewing negative feedback can be enlightening indeed. Sometimes doing so actually makes a seller look better, and makes me comfortable enough to purchase from them. Sometimes when a seller only has even one negative, seeing their response to that buyer's feedback will put me off purchasing from them entirely!