paying via paypal for local pick up items safer for buyers ??

[colic2bullsgirlore]

I wondered why many posters intimate that paying via paypal for local pick up is not as safe as payment via cash for a buyer

when neither method affords buyer protection ?

So what is the difference??

It would appear to me that lobbing at a strangers residence with an iphone/pad or laptop and making payment via paypal after

inspection may be a safer option for a buyer as opposed to arriving at a strangers residence with wads of cash with the

intention of purchasing after a positive inspection.

I understand most sellers would probably prefer cash and that a cash transaction would mostly be considered safer. However it

is my understanding that credit card chargebacks are not available for pick up items and I think some sellers would prefer an

electronic transfer rather than recieving cash from a stranger

Thoughts anybody?

Interesting piece I found on the net re chargebacks and debit cards

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PayPal and chargeback

Watch out if you use your credit or debit card to load money into your PayPal account or other similar online accounts, as it is the

loading of the money that is considered to be the card transaction.

If the money that you load into your account is then subsequently used to buy goods and services, that transaction is not classed

as a card transaction and is unlikely to be covered by chargeback.

If you're making a card purchase through PayPal it's best to empty your PayPal account regularly so there is no credit balance.

That way, when you make a card purchase through PayPal, the same amount will be debited from your bank account or credit

card as goes immediately to the seller.

This will make it easier for your bank or credit card provider to match the purchase with the debit.


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Can anybody explain to me why they recommend cash  payment after item inspection is safer than electronic payment via iphone

or lappy after item inspection for buyers????

I have seen it written many many times

[thecatspjs]

Rude !!!! To pay by a safe method that must be offered to list ????

I think its far ruder to list if you won't play by the rules that apply to all but a few categories.

[davewil1964]

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@thecatspjs wrote:

My advice to sellers is this: in the context of no seller paypal protection, and you are not wiling to accept a safe method of payment for pick up only goods, then find another venue to sell them.

To buyers, if a seller will not accept your safe payment, and or refunds it, report them to ebay for seller non-performance, as they are breaking ebay policy.

More importantly this type of seller is denying your consumer rights to transact in a manner that offers you more consumer protection than if you paid by cash only - including ability to recover of funds through credit cards, and a legitimate, reliable documentation that may assist in situations where liability or damages are sought down the track if the item is faulty or causes harm etc etc  

Paypal isn't the be all and end all of consumer protection, there are a range of consumer remedies available for buyers.  

I think requesting presentation of an acceptable form of ID for pick up items being paid by electronic funds transfer is sensible for goods that are of reasonable value.  

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These being things a buyer of a secondhand (presumably), pick up item from a non-business seller aren't entitled to anyway?

Have you heard of the term caveat emptor? Do you know why it is Latin?

[davewil1964]

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@colic2bullsgirlore wrote:

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@k1ooo-slr-sales wrote:

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@digital*ghost wrote:

If an INR and INAD claim won't be successful via PayPal or card, then all that's left is "unauthorised use". If a seller requires proof of identity when a buyer pays via PayPal, and that person is the cardholder, it means the seller can prove that the cardholder intiated the payment and collected the goods, therefore how can it be unauthorised?

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The PayPal payment advice sent to sellers does not include card/cardholder information for comparison purposes.  It is one of the things that PayPal promote i.e. we do not give your card details to sellers

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If the item is local pick up the seller can record a copy of the exact name on the credit card the expiry date and the csc on the back

of the card and if needs be ask the buyer for a signature on a item listing "receipt" then check the signature with the rear of the

card.

https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/here

The paypal service above allows you to accept credit card payments directly from a credit card

If you have the little rabbit ears for your mobile phone and are signed up to "paypal here" ( see the link above) then you can

actually swipe the card and turn the transaction into a card present one.

http://www.visa-asia.com/ap/au/merchants/riskmgmt/cardaccept_present.shtml

which are invariably much safer than card not persent transactions from a risk management point of view.

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If they are not paying by credit card then there is no onus on them to present a credit card to the seller. Especially if the payment has gone through Paypal. I have several 'credit' cards, as I imagine most people do these days. What's to say the one offered as proof of ID is the one used to fund the payment?

Besides - name, card number, expiry date and CSC give access to the card. Do you think most buyers are silly enough to give that information away to somebody else except through a secure portal?

[k1ooo-slr-sales]

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@davewil1964 wrote:

If they are not paying by credit card then there is no onus on them to present a credit card to the seller. Especially if the payment has gone through Paypal. I have several 'credit' cards, as I imagine most people do these days. What's to say the one offered as proof of ID is the one used to fund the payment?

Besides - name, card number, expiry date and CSC give access to the card. Do you think most buyers are silly enough to give that information away to somebody else except through a secure portal?

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Dave, I could not agree more.

Below is a direct cut and paste from the PayPal Privacy Policy under the "Disclosure to Other PayPal Customers" section on the webpage https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/privacy-full?locale.x=en-AU#OurUseAndDisclosureOfInformation

However, your credit card number, bank account and other financial information will NEVER be revealed to anyone whom you have paid or who has paid you through PayPal or with third parties that use PayPal Services, except with your express permission or if we are required to do so pursuant to credit card rules, a subpoena or other legal process.

. . . . . . which confirms that a PayPal payment could be funded with one credit card while a totally different one is provided at pickup by any buyer silly enough to share their credit card information (including the security number on the back) with a total stranger who they have bought something from on eBay.

[thecatspjs]

Individuals are not immune to the law.  There are a range of civil actions that one can pursue, as I have no doubt you are aware of Dave.

There are a range of protections available to buyers - some of these protections are faciliated through legislative frameworks that govern businesses and some of them may be through coverages or insurances offered to them for their purchases through their credit card companies.

[digital*ghost]

Just to be clear, an identity check would do more than (possibly) prove the buyer is the card holder.

You'll note I never said that the buyer should present their CC to confirm identity, and that being able to prove a transaction was authorised was reliant on the buyer (and person who picks up) being the CC holder.

The seller may not know if that person is the CC holder at time of pick-up, but if they photocopy photo ID they not only know some really darn good details to give the police if the transaction really was unauthorised, but if that person turns out to be fraudulently claiming unathorised use and is the cardholder, having proof that that particular person picked up the goods would go a long way in fighting a chargeback.

[k1ooo-slr-sales]

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@digital*ghost wrote:

Just to be clear, an identity check would do more than (possibly) prove the buyer is the card holder.

You'll note I never said that the buyer should present their CC to confirm identity, and that being able to prove a transaction was authorised was reliant on the buyer (and person who picks up) being the CC holder.

The seller may not know if that person is the CC holder at time of pick-up, but if they photocopy photo ID they not only know some really darn good details to give the police if the transaction really was unauthorised, but if that person turns out to be fraudulently claiming unathorised use and is the cardholder, having proof that that particular person picked up the goods would go a long way in fighting a chargeback.

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just went back and re-read your post #26.  Indeed you are right, and your insights are good.

I guess this whole debate on this thread shows that there are many interpretations of eBay and PayPal policy which can lead to conflicting opinions.  I feel that I have exhasted my opinions on this topic and nothing will be gained by me repeating them further.  I appreciate the opinions offered by colic, cats, d-g, dave, crikey and everyone else that has posted.

[digital*ghost]

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@k1ooo-slr-sales wrote:

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@digital*ghost wrote:

Just to be clear, an identity check would do more than (possibly) prove the buyer is the card holder.

You'll note I never said that the buyer should present their CC to confirm identity, and that being able to prove a transaction was authorised was reliant on the buyer (and person who picks up) being the CC holder.

The seller may not know if that person is the CC holder at time of pick-up, but if they photocopy photo ID they not only know some really darn good details to give the police if the transaction really was unauthorised, but if that person turns out to be fraudulently claiming unathorised use and is the cardholder, having proof that that particular person picked up the goods would go a long way in fighting a chargeback.

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just went back and re-read your post #26.  Indeed you are right, and your insights are good.

I guess this whole debate on this thread shows that there are many interpretations of eBay and PayPal policy which can lead to conflicting opinions.  I feel that I have exhasted my opinions on this topic and nothing will be gained by me repeating them further.  I appreciate the opinions offered by colic, cats, d-g, dave, crikey and everyone else that has posted.

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Partly my fault - I do have a habit of noting the conclusions to a thought process and not how I got there, which can sometimes be just as important. I didn't quite intend to get caught up on one aspect of the discussion, as my initial point was just intended to be that I think it's extremely important to be informed about all potential risks, which in turn (hopefully) means being informed about how to protect against them.

I think thectapjs has a point, though, in that sometimes the PayPal on pick-up items thing can be made out to be an extra "special" risk that shouldn't be taken if one can help it, but here's the thing...

There is no seller protection on any payment for goods received via PayPal unless the item was sold on eBay and is being posted. In the grand scheme of things, particularly these days, there would be more transactions conducted without seller protection than with. A pick-up item paid for via PayPal is not exposed to any more risk than a posted item paid for via PayPal on any other site, so I wonder if the sellers who advise to avoid PayPal for pick-ups don't offer PP on any other selling avenues? Or advise sellers on other sites or with their own websites not to offer PayPal, or merchant credit facilities, which also have no seller protection. 

[colic2bullsgirlore]

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@davewil1964 wrote:

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@colic2bullsgirlore wrote:

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@k1ooo-slr-sales wrote:

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@digital*ghost wrote:

If an INR and INAD claim won't be successful via PayPal or card, then all that's left is "unauthorised use". If a seller requires proof of identity when a buyer pays via PayPal, and that person is the cardholder, it means the seller can prove that the cardholder intiated the payment and collected the goods, therefore how can it be unauthorised?

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The PayPal payment advice sent to sellers does not include card/cardholder information for comparison purposes.  It is one of the things that PayPal promote i.e. we do not give your card details to sellers

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If the item is local pick up the seller can record a copy of the exact name on the credit card the expiry date and the csc on the back

of the card and if needs be ask the buyer for a signature on a item listing "receipt" then check the signature with the rear of the

card.

https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/here

The paypal service above allows you to accept credit card payments directly from a credit card

If you have the little rabbit ears for your mobile phone and are signed up to "paypal here" ( see the link above) then you can

actually swipe the card and turn the transaction into a card present one.

http://www.visa-asia.com/ap/au/merchants/riskmgmt/cardaccept_present.shtml

which are invariably much safer than card not present transactions from a risk management point of view.

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If they are not paying by credit card then there is no onus on them to present a credit card to the seller. Especially if the payment has gone through Paypal. I have several 'credit' cards, as I imagine most people do these days. What's to say the one offered as proof of ID is the one used to fund the payment?

Besides - name, card number, expiry date and CSC give access to the card. Do you think most buyers are silly enough to give that information away to somebody else except through a secure portal?

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about as probable as the buyer paying you in cash via counterfeit notes...even more of a chance of getting fake cash if you live in Albany

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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-08/police-warn-of-growing-prevalence-of-counterfeit-money/4805128

Police are warning of the growing prevalence of counterfeit money after two people were caught with nearly $1,000 in fake notes

on their way into Albany.

Police say they seized 19 fake $50 notes, as well as weapons and a quantity of methylamphetamine, from a car driving into

Albany late last week.

Two people have been charged and police expect more arrests.

Detective Senior Sergeant Quentin Flatman says it is a concerning discovery given the notes looked authentic.

He says counterfeit money cases are growing across the state and has warned they might be 'flooding' the Albany area.

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that is why they designed paypal here... to take credit card transactions via paypal with the card present.

It's deemed a secure portal

It appears a great seller tool for local pickups, markets, tradesmen or whatever

You are open to the same checks everytime you use your credit card whether you use it for an ebay purchase or a purchase at

your local shop.

If the seller has their own merchant facilty then the seller would be well within their rights to request whatever information they

deemed neccesary before processing any payment  in fact most credit card companies give that advice in their best practice

tutorials.

See the link below

http://learn.nab.com.au/how-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud-hints-and-tips/

Credit card fraud prevention tips

High risk credit card transactions

You need to understand that some credit card transactions come with a higher risk of fraud or charge backs.

Here’s a list of some high risk transactions.

• Accepting payment online, over the phone or by mail order (card not present transactions).
• Manually entering the card details into your EFTPOS terminal.
• Not getting authorisation for the transaction.
• Not swiping or inserting the card through your EFTPOS terminal.
• Not processing fallback transactions properly.

Authenticate the card and cardholder

• Check the card details carefully. Make sure the name, expiry date and number match the person and the receipt details.
• Check that the card’s not counterfeit, for example, check the hologram is a 3D image.
• Watch your customers’ behaviour and purchasing habits.
• If you’re accepting payments online or over the phone, get further information or identification from the customer

I cannot see any information above that indicates the cash is a safer option for buyers for local pick up items than paypal is but I

can see many ways that a seller can increase the security of a buyer paypal payment for local pick up

[2106greencat]

If I were a buyer I would not want to pay via paypal for the simple reason that I want to inspect the item before I pick it up.

And not everyone has a mobile phone for eBay or a laptop/tablet or whatever. Just seems like a lot of trouble to go to.

Inspect the item, agree to take it, go home and pay via paypal, go back to get the item (hoping another buyer hasn't turned up with cash) etc etc