BLOKES THREAD-aimed at blokes-shielas welcome.

[serendipityricho]

Seems to be a lack of threads for blokes.
On other threads,some ladies have mentioned, their OHs
would post, but had no interest in most of the threads on offer.
I can bump this thead twice a day,so its easy to find.
Give it a go---Richo.

[countessalmirena]

The plates become more important because Ms Patterson refused help serving up, had the four separate Beef Wellingtons for the guests on 4 separate plates (and her own Beef Wellington on a smaller bright differently-coloured plate), and denied using a food dehydrator and foraging for mushrooms until the evidence was starting to come in. She also expressed surprise that there was a test to detect death cap toxin in the victims. She was specifically asked if she had foraged mushrooms while the in-laws were very ill in hospital and she said no.

Had she said yes, treatment for death cap mushroom toxins would have been given. The hospital didn’t give the patients that treatment because there was no evidence of death caps at that point. A day or so later, there was reason enough; but in spite of then administering that treatment, it was too late for three of the victims.

Once there were statements about different plates, it may have preyed on her mind as incriminating. (Separate plate so she wouldn’t eat the poisoned food?) She certainly dumped the dehydrator (admits that after CCTV actually shows her doing that). The phone taken into evidence by the police was repeatedly given a factory reset even after the seizure (remote reset); photos were found in spite of this, of the dehydrator, of foraged mushrooms, weighed.

Here’s one point re the plates. Only after two eyewitness statements were made about why Erin would have a completely different plate for herself at that lunch would it have become a burning issue if Ms Patterson were guilty. Before that, no one would have known about this.

Second point: even dishwashing liquid wouldn’t necessarily have removed the toxins on a chemical level.

That’s why I believe the plate evidence is importantly. (Ditto for the dehydrator.)

[countessalmirena]

Dr Gerostamoulos says he is commonly asked to test for substances such as drugs and alcohol.

However, when asked about death cap mushrooms, he says these toxins are unusual and not routinely tested for.

"These poisons are outside that routine investigation," he says.

He lists the toxins found in death cap mushrooms, known as amatoxins.

He says those toxins lead to necrosis, liver damage and cell death.

The prosecution asks Dr Gerostamoulos how robust the toxins inside death cap mushrooms are.

"They are quite stable, when these compounds are frozen but also when they are subjected to heat," he says.

He uses an example of toxins being heated while being prepared in a meal.

Patterson, children tested negative for death cap toxins

Dr Gerostamoulos said he tested 50 samples taken from Don Patterson while he was alive and after he died.

The doctor told the jury they found alpha-Amanitin and beta-Amanitin in Don's urine samples.

The jury heard death cap toxins were not detected in his blood sample, serum samples or the post-mortem sample.

Dr Gerostamoulos said this was because the toxins 'don't exist in blood for very long'.

He said the toxins remain in much higher concentrations for much longer in the urine.

Dr Gerostamoulos said no sample was found post-mortem because the samples were taken too long after death.

The expert told the jury he collected samples from other lunch guests and no ethanol (alcohol) was detected in any sample.

The deceased patients also all tested positive for hospital drugs including fentanyl.

Dr Gerostamoulos said beta-Amanitin was detected in Ian Wilkinson’s serum sample.

He said they tested nine samples from Erin Patterson and no death cap toxins were detected.

Dr Gerostamoulos also said no alcohol was detected, but hospital medication Ondansetron was picked up on the test.

The jury heard multiple samples were taken from Patterson's children and no death cap mushroom toxins were detected.

The prosecution details testimony from mycologist Camille Truong.

She told the court that microscopic analysis of the food showed no death cap mushrooms.

Dr Gerostamoulos says the only real way of identifying poisons put in food is analytically through a laboratory.

He tells the court the lab works in identifying the toxins rather than the type of mushrooms.

Dr Gerostamoulos says that even if the mushrooms were liquefied or turned into a powder, the toxins would still be detectable.

Dr Gerostamoulos details to the court the process of testing for toxins in the leftover food.

He says a solvent such as methanol is added to the leftover food in an effort to remove any toxins present.

The solvent mixture is then left for up to three hours, then the liquid is concentrated and measured with a highly sensitive instrument.

The court is shown pictures of the month-old food samples undertaken by the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine lab.

Prosecutor Sarah Lenthall says there will be 17 photos tendered as part of this exhibit.

The first photo is of the food samples inside a blue plastic bags, which are each said to contain “2x pastry parcels”.

The second photo is of the samples themselves. They show crusted pastry and some brown filling.

The third photo shows small sample containers, with small pieces of pastry and chopped mushrooms inside.

Dr Gerostamoulos says that in one sample of mushroom paste, death cap toxin beta amanitin was detected.

Beta amanitin was also detected in one sample of meat.

A jug with brown liquid, appearing to be gravy, tested negative for toxins.

Samples of vegetable matter from the dehydrator dumped by Erin Patterson was then tested.

Dr Gerostamoulos says several samples from the dehydrator tested positive for both alpha and beta amanitin.

[twyngwyn]

Regardless of my own beliefs, it’s up to the prosecution to be emphatic about their case…..I’m unconvinced…..more importantly, is the jury?

[countessalmirena]

They should have been completely impartial. I’ve no idea what views the jury members have been forming during the trial… but they would know not to discuss it at all with anyone outside the jury.

I don’t know whether the evidence rises to the level of beyond a reasonable doubt at this point. Gut feeling doesn’t cut it in a criminal trial, and there’s no doubt the prosecution has a high burden to meet to make their case.

[springyzone]

The plates become more important because Ms Patterson refused help serving up, had the four separate Beef Wellingtons for the guests on 4 separate plates (and her own Beef Wellington on a smaller bright differently-coloured plate), and denied using a food dehydrator and foraging for mushrooms until the evidence was starting to come in. She also expressed surprise that there was a test to detect death cap toxin in the victims. She was specifically asked if she had foraged mushrooms while the in-laws were very ill in hospital and she said no.

Second point: even dishwashing liquid wouldn’t necessarily have removed the toxins on a chemical level.

This is where Erin may have made her biggest mistake:

The cause of death was always going to be discovered. I am no medical specialist but even I could guess that much. When a whole group of people go down with serious illness, gastro symptoms, one of the first things authorities do is try to trace what they have in common.

I did read one report that suggests (to my mind) that at least one of the victims, very early on when taken ill, suspected they had been deliberately poisoned.

So there were always going to be tests to find the guilty ingredient.

And forensics being what they are, there would always be a chance that the poison might leave traces on the dishes after washing. I wouldn't count on that though, water and bleach can degrade a lot of things. So that would have been an unknown-maybe could be traced, maybe not.

Much more likely (to my mind) is traces might be found in leftovers/rubbish and that you could not afford to dump, or not in entirety, you'd have to have at least some crumbs in the bins for inspection. You could guess in advance authorities would be coming for the leftovers, to test them.

The way i would play it (if I had deliberately set this up) is to have had a very tiny bit in my own meal, minute bit, risky but would have to be done.

Then not worry about trace elements on dishes, maybe smear a tiny bit of paste on my own plate later before the dishwasher.

Admit to foraging, admit to drying out some mushrooms, claim it wasn't something you did often but you thought they were safe, had no idea they were the dangerous ones etc

And any research you did beforehand, do on a totally different device, one you paid cash for, one you could break and ditch immediately after the deed (but not in your own bins or area).

So it hasn't played out as I would play it, which would be trying to get away with claiming accident.

This woman is supposed to be fairly intelligent but to me, a lot of the lies seem fear driven and on the hop, and some actions inspired by panic.  Taken by surprise almost that she was under suspicion. Yet the whole process of finding/researching poison mushrooms, preparing them,  cooking the meal suggests long term planning.

The two aspects don't align. The whole case is confusing. I am glad I am not on the jury.

[domino-710]

Another freezing one here.

I must admit I'm very short on ' defence '.

Question from the prosecution :

Phone A ??

Phone B ??

Over to the defence. LOL

[springyzone]

We are fast approaching the shortest day.

Then it is expected to reverse but in my experience, the early dusks go on for ages.

I watch dawn and dusk times as I hate driving in the dark and at the moment, especially in peak times, I am having to.

It has been cooler but at least not overcast and rainy (though I know the farmers need the rain).

As for the mushroom sagas.  All the jury really has to decide is-deliberate or accident.

One off the things I did notice-a side issue-is that one poor woman there gave half her beef wellington to her husband. Now, you'd expect he might die after one and a half serves, but she was unlucky. You'd think there would have been a better chance she'd pull through. But every body is different.

[countessalmirena]

The fatal amount is terrifyingly small for these mushrooms. Even with the specific treatment for the toxins, survival rate is low. Best chance of survival requires early intervention, which is a problem because the early symptoms are usually shrugged off (gastro? Mild food poisoning?) and then the victim starts to feel better before getting worse. Testing for death cap poisoning is not a standard thing - which may explain why hypothetically a murderer may expect that it wouldn’t be diagnosed before all trace of the toxins dissipated in both the blood and in the urine of the victim.

Once the guests had consumed the beef wellingtons, their deaths were almost assured. Half was clearly sufficient to kill - accidentally or deliberately.

 It’s a miracle that Ian survived.

There would have been a better chance of survival if death cap poisoning had been more strongly suspected - not guaranteed but… yes, a higher chance of making it. Liver transplants for the two women couldn’t proceed as they were by that time too far gone. It’s a horrible horrible way to die.

[springyzone]

With 4 people from the same lunch all in hospital with gastro symptoms, you'd think the first question would be-what did you all eat at the lunch?

The minute they said Beef Wellington, the main culprits would stand out as being the mushrooms or the beef. Mushrooms are a well known poison risk if you eat the wrong ones.

I am surprised Erin wasn't questioned on the source of her mushrooms earlier.

Although testing for death cap mushrooms would not be customary in most cases of gastro, you'd think it was warranted in this case, where mushrooms made up a main ingredient.

Even then, they may not have been able to avoid the deaths.

From memory, I am not sure if all the victims were at the same hospital though and this is where I think sometimes our medical system falls down. There isn't (or doesn't seem to be) a lot of communication between hospitals or hospitals out of their zone.

I have a friend who used to work in a big public hospital, which I won't name. She used to admit patients. Sometimes she became suspicious. People who didn't recognise their 'own name' and so on.

She looked further into a couple & what she (or the hospital) discovered was that some people with a medicare card were selling or renting use of it to overseas people, who were here, maybe on a student visa or whatever,  they would use the card, go for their operation in a public hospital, all covered by medicare.

The thing is, sometimes the card had been used for the same operation, only at different hospitals eg appendix out. You'd think the online system could pick up on this, how often can you have the same thing removed? But it doesn't.

So maybe it took a bit of time before there was any liaison between the hospitals.

[countessalmirena]

---

@springyzone wrote:

With 4 people from the same lunch all in hospital with gastro symptoms, you'd think the first question would be-what did you all eat at the lunch?

The minute they said Beef Wellington, the main culprits would stand out as being the mushrooms or the beef. Mushrooms are a well known poison risk if you eat the wrong ones.

I am surprised Erin wasn't questioned on the source of her mushrooms earlier..

---

Erin was asked about the source of the mushrooms. She said she’d bought them from Woolworths. She flat-out denied foraging. Lied.

It wasn’t until later that she said that there might have been some dried mushrooms that she had bought from an Asian grocer in Glen Waverley. Again, lied re foraging.

Then later still after further questioning she added a few other possible suburbs.

Then later, not Glen Waverley… no, Mount Waverley.

Then, when tests were showing the four had been poisoned by death caps, out came her new story… yes, she had done foraging.

Her evidence now is that she’s been foraging mushrooms for several years.

Her children, in the police interview, both say they’ve never seen her mushroom foraging.

The prosecution allege she has not been foraging edible non-toxic mushrooms, but only the toxic death caps, after the iNaturalist website had posts up about death caps in the area complete with their location - as a warning.

If she’d admitted from the beginning that she had foraged for mushrooms, ever,  the silibinin treatment would have been administered to all four. 

I sound cynical here. And unfortunately I am. Pointless and selfish lies if Ms Patterson is innocent… horribly self-serving (and wrong-footed) if she’s not.

Below is the treatment timeline; I know it’s quite long! But hopefully it explains the process regarding symptoms and interventions. 

Don and Gail were in hospital by 10 am the next morning (after the fatal lunch). Tests showed worsening problems for Don; Gail was less ill at that time…

❝Dr Morgan was a medical registrar at Monash Health at the time of the poisonings.

She was the senior medical doctor on site overnight when Don and Gail Patterson arrived.

While her shift was due to end at 8am that day, she became involved in the treatment of the married couple.

Dr Morgan says Don exhibited mild right-side abdominal pain in addition to the nausea and diarrhoea, but with no blood produced in vomit or stool samples.

She says doctors were told about the beef Wellington lunch about Erin Patterson's house at this time.❞

(Death Cap poisoning wouldn’t have been automatically suspected, particularly because of the disparity of symptoms between Don and Gail, and no suggestion of foraged mushrooms.)

Then … 

❝IV fluids were administered to Don in an attempt to remedy the signs, after which another VBG test was run on Don.

But rather than improvement, the tests revealed that treatment had not worked.

"It suggested that there was a persistent, severe metabolic acidosis," Dr Morgan says.

Doctors worked to find possible causes for Don's illness, such as ischemic bowel disease.

Dr Morgan says when she spoke with Don, he seemed well and showed no abdominal tenderness.

She concluded that gastro brought on by food poisoning alone would not account for his illness.

As night closed, a CT scan was conducted, which was able to rule out an ischemic bowel.❞

So they were running through the possibilities. Then came the first time death cap mushrooms were raised as a possibility:

❝About 10:30pm, Dr Morgan says she texted the toxicology department, who ordered her to find out more about what was served at lunch.

"I was concerned that this wasnt just gastroenteritis caused by food poisoning," Dr Morgan says.

"There was a discussion about the presentation and how it was quite severe, but the onset of symptoms was quite delayed.

"This would be more indicative of a serious toxin syndrome as opposed to a food poisoning."

Dr Morgan says the toxicologist on call told her that if it was a toxin poisoning, it was most likely due to the ingestion of the amanita phalloides (death cap mushroom) toxin.❞

Don’s wife Gail wasn’t showing the severe signs at this stage. 

❝As advised by toxicologists, Don was put onto a range of treatments including N-acetylcysteine (NAC), a liver-protecting drug used in cases of paracetemol overdose.

However, Dr Morgan says the hospital did not immediately administer silibinin, an antidote to death cap mushrooms.

"At that time we had no evidence that anyone else was unwell, or that anyone else was experiencing the metabolic acidosis," she tells the court.

[My bolding]

Due to her symptoms and normal readings on VBG tests, Gail was not given as intensive medical care as Don, with doctors believing her illness to be food poisoning.

In the early hours of the morning, Dr Morgan contacted Leongatha Hospital and asked them to conduct VBG tests on Ian and Heather Wilkinson.❞

Then Gail began showing worsening results.

❝At about 12:22am, fresh VBG tests showed that Gail was now also showing elevated lactate levels.

The emergency room doctor also contacted the toxicologist, who recommended a repeat of liver function tests, and the administering of NAC if necessary.

At 1:53am, Dr Morgan reviewed Gail and spoke to her at bedside, when she discovered that Gail had only eaten half her portion of beef Wellington at lunch.

"She looked unwell and clinically dehydrated," Dr Morgan says.

At 2:08am, the results of the new liver function test arrived, showing that her liver function was worsening over time.❞

They now start administering the death cap antidote:

❝At 6.50am the next morning, after conversations with the toxicology department, it was suggested that doctors begin administering the antidote silibinin and the antibiotic rifampicin.

The court hears that meanwhile, Ian and Heather were still at the Leongatha Hospital and had continued vomiting all night.

Dr Morgan says doctors at Leongatha Hospital were instructed to start Ian and Heather Wilkinson on NAC, and an antibiotic.❞