COVID-19 vs Flu ... Oils ain't oils

[countessalmirena]

There is sometimes some confusion about whether COVID-19 is the same as 'flu. Is it just a type of 'flu? Is it a more virulent strain like the 'flu of 1918 (Spanish flu)? Can't we just treat it in the same way that we treat the 'flu?

There are similarities between COVID-19 and influenza

• They are both respiratory diseases.
• They are both contagious.
• They are both airborne (can be transmitted via tiny particles suspended in the air). Droplet (close contact infection from larger sized particles) or fomite transmission (from surfaces) is also common to both.
• They can both result in pneumonia which complicates the patient's outcome.
• Those infected can be asymptomatic (no symptoms), have mild symptoms, have moderate symptoms, or have severe symptoms. Some patients will die.
• People infected with either COVID-19 or 'flu can transmit the disease while asymptomatic, hence they may never know that they have passed on a disease to others.
• Symptoms of COVID-19 and influenza can be similar, but loss of taste or smell is far more likely to occur with COVID-19 than with 'flu.

CAN COVID-19 be diagnosed by symptoms?

Neither 'flu nor COVID-19 can be diagnosed from the symptoms experienced by the patient, although previously, unless it was clinically necessary, GPs may have diagnosed 'flu based upon sympoms. (That's less likely to happen now with the risk of COVID-19.) A diagnostic test (PCR) is the most accurate way to test for either 'flu or COVID-19, and there's even a est (multiplex assay) that can test for influenza A, influenza B or COVID-19 at one and the same time.

REDUCING RISKS is the same for both diseases

• Hand hygiene
• Cough etiquette (cough into crook of elbow, not into hands)
• Social distancing
• Air filtering/purifying/ventilation
• Mask wearing (ensure no gaps)
• Avoid touching face or adjusting mask
• Quarantine and isolation where required

VIRUS THAT CAUSE COVID-19 vs VIRUSES THAT CAUSE 'FLU

These two diseases are not caused by the same viruses. COVID-19 is not a type of 'flu.

Coronavirus

SARS-CoV-2, the virus which causes COVID-19, is a coronavirus (spherical, with a lipid (fat) layer, and their surface is studded with protein spikes) which is a positive-sense single-stranded RNA virus. It enters human cells primarily by binding to an enzyme called ACE2. Other coronaviruses include that which causes SARS, that which causes MERS, and those which are part of a range of different viruses that cause the common cold.

SARS-CoV-2 is identified as being a strain of the virus that causes SARS, based upon conserved sequences of nucleic acids. This does not mean that SARS-CoV-2 is a mutation of the SARS virus; these two made the jump from bat-reservoir to humans separately.

SARS is considered to be eradicated in terms of human-to-human transmission, primarily because containment measures were very effective. Patients with SARS were most infectious if they were severely ill, and in the second week of their infection (while their symptoms were severe). There were 774 confirmed deaths due to SARS. Now, because the last outbreak of SARS was years ago, it ceased to be a global priority. No effective antiviral treatments currently exist, and work on a vaccine stalled because of lack of funding years ago. However, that early work was pivotal in driving vaccine development for SARS-CoV-2; without that groundwork, we might still be waiting for a COVID-19 vaccine. This highlights just how important it is for funding to be readily available.

This contrasts with how easily SARS-CoV-2 is spread - in particular with the Delta variant being transmissible within as early as 1-2 days of exposure, and while the person is asymptomatic.

MERS is more deadly than SARS-CoV-2, but nowhere near as easily transmitted. Direct or indirect contact with camels is the most likely route for infection; human-to-human transmission can occur, but it requires close contact, and there's no evidence of asymptomatic transmission. There have been 885 confirmed deaths due to MERS. There's no current effective treatment, but several vaccines are in clinical trials. It is not considered a priority risk to the global population.

Influenzavirus

But when we come to influenza, it's caused by negative-sense, single-stranded, segmented RNA viruses that use glycoproteins as their break-and-entry method into cells. There are four types of influenza: influenza A virus (the most virulent - i.e., deadly - human flu virus, and the one that's responsible for human epidemics/pandemics), influenza B virus (slower to mutate and doesn't cause pandemics, but can still cause deaths globally), influenza C (usually only causes mild disease in children), and influenza D (not known to cause infections in humans).

Quadrivalent 'flu vaccines are highly effective in preventing infection by either of the known circulating influenza B virus lineages, and in fact it is possible that the hygiene/containment measures against COVID-19 have actually eliminated one of those two lineages. There still remains the B/Victoria/2/87 lineage, and the current 'flu vaccine remains effective against that.

By far the most dangerous 'flu virus for us is influenza A. The current 'flu vaccine is effective against the circulating strains (H1N1 and H3N2). The 'flu vaccine must be regularly updated with newly emerging seed strains, as influenza A mutates rapidly. If a new and deadlier strain that could be transmitted human-to-human were to emerge - say, of H5N1 - there would be a timelag before it could be identified and a  vaccine developed against that specific strain. In that event, the number of deaths would be high.

"Just" the 'flu?

Let's not minimise the effect of the 'flu upon humans. We see annual deaths of seasonal 'flu, mostly among the unvaccinated and the vulnerable, in the order of ~300,000 globally. Better hygiene measures and an end to the "soldier on" attitude when one has 'flu symptoms does see this number go down dramatically, as evidenced by the 2020/2021 'flu season results.

However, when virulent and highly contagious new strains seed in the wild, there arises a pandemic risk. When we see 'flu pandemics, they are not something to be sneezed at (excuse the pun). They have been deadly and catastrophic. We haven't defeated the 'flu, and living with the 'flu means constant vigilance by the CDC to identify new strains, and using those strains as attenuated versions for use in the updated quadrivalent vaccine for the upcoming season.

Without that ongoing work, the world as it is could not continue to function.

When I hear people comparing the 'flu with COVID-19, they are talking about the 'flu as it is now - that is, under strong control, with high immunity levels in the community due to many people having regular 'flu shots, and those shots being regularly updated with the strains out in the wild. Natural immunity to 'flu lineages doesn't last a lifetime, not even for influenza B, and certainly not for influenza A.

We should not trivialise 'flu. New 'flu pandemics are epidemiologically sure to arise, and they will kill and cause chaos.

But at the moment, we're in the COVID-19 pandemic. COVID-19 has Reff of 8 (Delta variant), and that's higher than the Reff of the 'flu strains that have caused pandemics. Thank God we have developed effective vaccines and that vaccine development is continuing. Thank God we've got oral drug treatments already in line for approval. We'll only get on top of this by global vaccination and in addition by making sure that drug treatments are made available. Vaccination is even more important against COVID-19 than it is against 'flu - but we can't do without either.

Discussion welcome.

[countessalmirena]

I think this has been addressed before, rogespeed... but I'll briefly cover it just in case.

I'm focusing on how it's done in Australia. I cannot vouch for specifics in countries where the health system is overwhelmed and many deaths have not been certified properly, with many deaths (esp. in remote areas or in areas where home deaths were not even checked) practically unreported in any meaningful/statistical sense.

Cause of death is listed on a death certificate as the proximate cause/immediate cause. There can be (and frequently are) underlying conditions which are to be listed on the death certificate as well. COVID-19 or Coronavirus Disease 2019 is recorded in Part I of the Medical Certificate of Cause of Death. This is also where one would specify causal pathway, and include all conditions and symptoms, including their duration, based upon lab results/bloodwork, knowledge of the case, medical records, etc.

Then in Part II, one would record the existing/chronic conditions that might have contributed to the death.

In the case of COVID patients, let's assume that a person dies at home and wasn't diagnosed before death. The person's GP cannot possibly be comfortably certain of the cause of death in the circumstances, and given the current pandemic, COVID-19 must be ruled out as a possible cause of death. All attending the discovery/collection of the body must wear appropriate PPE and handle the body as though the deceased was infected with COVID-19. The death is reported to the coroner's office, and various tests are carried out. Positive COVID result and results of the autopsy (esp. damage to the lungs consistent with the effects of COVID-19 in severe disease) will form the basis of immediate cause of death, even in the presence of other health conditions which may have been managed by the deceased's health team.

Let's say the person died at home but was diagnosed with COVID-19 before death. If there were diseases/illnesses/conditions impacting the patient's likelihood of developing severe disease from the virus, more than likely the patient should have been taken to hospital, but if patient refused (absent severe symptoms at the time) and then died, prima facie cause of death may be judged to be COVID-19. In that case, doctor may feel comfortably satisfied in signing the death certificate with COVID-19 as the immediate cause of death, other conditions notwithstanding.

If the doctor doesn't feel comfortably satisfied, he/she reports the death to the coroner's office.

If the patient dies in hospital while being treated for COVID-19, probably after having been moved to ICU because the symptoms are severe, and particularly when the patient has been put onto a respirator in a desperate last-ditch attempt to save the patient... unless the patient's death is due to a myocardial infarction or a stroke or sepsis or any condition not directly and immediately related to the COVID-19 infection, or something like a fall or being shot by a gun or arrow or strangled or otherwise done to death, the proximate/immediate cause of death will clearly be COVID-19. In the case of any doubt, an autopsy would resolve any issue. In hospital situations, doctors are less likely than in a home death situation to report a death to the coroner's office, as they may feel comfortably satisfied as to the cause of death, but if a patient presents to Emergency, for instance, with severe COVID-19 symptoms without time to get him/her to ICU, it's almost always going to be a coroner situation.

You need to understand that just because a person who becomes infected with COVID-19 might not have died of COVID-19 if he/she didn't have an underlying condition that made him/her more vulnerable to the disease, it doesn't negate the immediate cause of death being COVID-19.

TWO SCENARIOS to illustrate the difference...

John P. has cancer. He's undergoing chemotherapy. He's immunocompromised. He may not live for much longer - perhaps a year. His treatment is ongoing, and there's some hope, say, a 20% chance of survival. He becomes infected with COVID-19. His symptoms become severe, and he dies. His death certificate lists immediate cause of death as COVID-19, and includes pneumonia and fatal respiratory distress in Part I. In Part II, there will be recorded cancer, right upper lobe lung, Immunosuppressant therapy.

Tom H. has a heart condition. He's in hospital after having suffered a heart attack. His outlook is grave. While in hospital, he contracts COVID-19. He suffers another - this time fatal - heart attack. Absent evidence that COVID-19 led directly and immediately to his death, the immediate cause of death listed in Part I is going to be more along the lines of Myocardial infarction and arrest, with Part II recording pre-existing conditions and something like COVID-19, 3 days (or however long he had been infected with the virus).

In the first case, patient died with COVID-19 as proximate cause of death. In the second case, patient died with COVID-19 but proximate cause of death is not COVID-19.

I hope that explains it.

[rogespeed]

Vaxx rates DR Congo  0.2%    deaths  c1100   daily deaths 0-6 pop 5.52M 

Cases total all time c59,000 recovered c51,000

so when not vaxxed for whatever reason obviously fresh air , sunshine , lack of heavy industry pollution , kind of an animated positive social environment.... does no harm 

[domino-710]

You've stated you've studied.

Did not one of your Lecturers or Tutors - not hand it back - stating English please.

[not_for_sale2025]

So are you saying the 8,000 who did not recover did not suffer harm, or are they irrelevant?

[springyzone]

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@rogespeed wrote:

Vaxx rates DR Congo  0.2%    deaths  c1100   daily deaths 0-6 pop 5.52M 

Cases total all time c59,000 recovered c51,000

so when not vaxxed for whatever reason obviously fresh air , sunshine , lack of heavy industry pollution , kind of an animated positive social environment.... does no harm 

---

--------------------------

What on earth is a kind of animated positive social environment?

You can't mean the fresh air and sunshine as they were mentioned earlier and you've used the word 'social'.

I think you're trying to keep your cake and eat it too a bit.

Earlier you spoke about the people in Africa, saying their 'biological' ages may not equate to their average younger chronological age. Or that's what I think you implied.

Now you're implying they live in a much healthier environment, fresh air, sunshine, no nasty industry, a better social environment. A version of the 'noble savage' theory, or that's a bit how it is coming across.

I think it is pretty well documented that some illnesses such as flu and most likely covid as well are more prevalent in the winter months, when people are more likely to be inside and in closer proximity to others.

So in a warmer climate there may be the advantage that people could be outdoors more.

But I suspect our industries are at least as regulated and probably more so than in some of the African countries. Places such as eg South Africa are not little backwaters, there are big cities there too, and cars and industry.

An 'animated social environment' won't protect you from any virulent disease.

[myoclon1cjerk]

Hey, I found another treatment for covid, courtesy of the GOP, again.This time it's mouthwash. I can't wait for Craig Kelly to be elected next year. Onward, Australia!

https://youtu.be/EkdKhuG648k

[myoclon1cjerk]

Hmmmm. Should we be taking Omicron a bit more seriously?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-14/norway-bans-serving-alcohol-covid-omicron/100697718

Edit: Also N.S.W has seen an exponential increase in the number of covid cases in the last couple of days. Overnight total was 800+.

[janeababe]

I’m going to admit that when covid first hit the news back in March 2020, I was like ‘OMG, we’re all going to die’!  My work closed down so I was self isolating at home staying the hell away from everyone!  Did that for 6 weeks. 

Moving forward, I was sceptical about the vaccine, then my cuz in UK died of covid. From diagnosis of covid, to death, just 8 days. 😥
That was enough for me, I lined up without hesitation for the jab.  I trust the vaccine and I am Pro Covid vaccine. 

Since then, it’s been closures -open, then closures -open, on and on and on.

Masks, masks, masks……  QR code’s, covid vax ✅ of approval. Conspiracy theorists, anti-Vaxer’s,  riots, protests, outbreaks, new variants, more closures, more restrictions, then to now….. almost open slather! 

Not going to lie, I’m over it all! We are hell bent on protecting the aged in Residential Facilities…. WHY? Have you been in one lately?
These folk are at the end of their life journey, their independence level is extremely low and they ALL have major underlying health issues. And here we are, locking them up like rare antiques that need protecting and keeping their families out like dangerous killer criminals!  Family is ALL these folk have left! They are all double vaxed, so why are we isolating them? Seriously, and I know it’s harsh…..but let them be free. Enjoy what’s left! 

And the healthy elderly still live at home!  So they are looking after their own health.

People dying in our hospitals without any family allowed in.  People being buried without family and friends in attendance.  Babies being born in an environment of fear rather than love! It’s got to stop! 

Let’s just get on with LIFE! If you don’t want to catch covid, then it’s your responsibility to stay safe. Wear your mask, get your booster shots, keep your distance…. Etc…. But I’m over it. 

Im almost positive that when I was travelling the UK December 2019 to January 2020  that I was exposed to covid! Over half our bus group became very sick, flu like symptoms. One man was incredibly unwell and needed to go to a hospital, he was given ABs which of course, did no good.  My hubby was crook when we got back home for about 2 weeks then all good. Surprisingly, I didn’t get sick and I actually have underlying health issues. Go figure! 

Now omicron is here…. Surprise surprise! Just in time for the next lot of public holidays and the time when a lot of folk travel. Ok, so what! Do we close everything up again, or will it just be best to go out and live life and take a chance. Survival of the fittest?!?!?!?!  

I don’t know. I don’t think anyone truly knows….. but I’m over it. 
Im going to live my life fear-free …..

 and if I die, then I’ll see you on the other side, mate 😄

 I also want to add my 2 cents worth on the covid vaccine certificate.  I show mine on my phone, when asked, and at places where it is compulsory AND YET…. Not once has anyone asked me to verify that the certificate I’m showing them actually belongs to me! They’ve not checked my name or anything. 
I also found out that a young lad (20yrs) has created his own double vax certificate on his phone. And apparently, it looks very very real. 
Other stories of folk just showing a pic of ‘someone else’s’ vax certificate and passing it off as their own and since no one checks, how would they know? So again, I ask…. What’s the point! 

Food for thought! 😉

[rogespeed]

Only counted if made it to hospital - some countries introduced mobile cremators for sanitizing home casualties .

The sulphur smog could be easily detected by overhead satellite sensors