How important is a Tertiary Education?

[the_bob_delusion]

Go.

[rabbitearbandicoot]

" universities do make you more intelligent because they make you think differently, deeper, wider than the average person. To imagine other possibilities, question research, cultivate creativity. As I said, these are principles that 99% of people could only learn at university."

I don't believe that for ONE moment. Thinking differently, deeper wider - is where imagination and intuition come in - what we have come to call 'thinking outside the box'.

As far as saying that can only be learned in university - sorry to say "bunkum". As I said, I have hired IT graduates and they have absolutely no idea of the real world. They are too institutionalised and set in their 'theoretical' rote learning to think that way. They have a predefined notion of what happens in a theoretical environment. That's what I have found in IT anyway, it may be different in other fields.

One example - General Manager over-road my choice and hired this graduate anyway - he had all the theory down pat - he rolled out reems of paper detailing how things should be done - interactions with existing systems - flowcharts up the gazoo - submitted them to the GM.  Meanwhile one of my guys had designed the databases and written the programs, documentation (both systems and user) required and had them set up and tested. The GM's boy lasted for one more project and then the GM sacked him. 

Another example. GM hired this young guy who had excelled in his university grades. He turned out to be the biggest '**bleep**er' this side of the black stump - arrogant - no-one could tell him anything. He was sacked after 2 weeks too.

From that point  on I was allowed to hire whomever I thought was best. I never had to sack anyone after that.

[gleee58]

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@i-need-a-martini wrote:

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@chameleon54 wrote:

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To suggest that 99% of the population could not learn these skills without attending university is clearly a patronising nonsense. I think the learning of these skills is more related to personal intelligence than educational opportunities.  Using your theory many of the worlds most celebrated minds pre 1850,s could not have developed an enquiring mind, imagining possibilities and researching medical and technological projects as university education was not readily available in this period.  

One of the most intelligent people I know left school at age 14 and took over the running of his fathers farm on his dads untimely death. He has gone on to develop a profound knowledge and understanding of mechanical and engineering principles. He designs and builds huge farm machines, does all of his own mechanical and electrical work including servicing the modern computer systems used to operate farm machines.

In his spare time in the farm workshop, he has taken an old Holden 1970,s station wagon body and mounted it on a Toyota Landcruiser chassis equiped with a 350 Chev V8 motor to make a four wheel drive 1970 Holden. His engineering and workmanship was of such a high standard that his state registration and roadworthy authority allowed immediate registration. This may not excite some of the tertiary educated members on the forums, but anyone who has dealt with these authorities will understand the scale of this achievement.

To suggest that an enquiring and creative mind is strictly limited to those who have attended university shows a level of arrogance and  disappointing lack of understanding of the possabilities for those who have not had the opportunity, or who chose not to attend university.

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I am not talking about skills. Neither did I say that enquiring or creative minds are strictly limited to those that attend university.  All 5 year olds have enquiring and creative minds and they haven't attended uni yet.

Your example shows you miss the meaning of what I am saying and your example illustrates perfectly what I am saying.

Your intelligent person (and I never said only people that go to university are intelligent BTW), clearly understands the process of machines from life on a farm and, as you say, has developed a profound knowledge which is enough to create and build his own machines and build a machine capable of being roadworthy. He has learnt through experience and has an outstanding set of skills because of this.

That isn't something he would ever learn at university. It's not what universities are about.

And I think you will find that most of the celebrated minds pre 1850's were cultivated in some way or other. Some had money. Others (like Thomas Edison or Frank Lloyd Wright) had mothers that cultivated what they needed. For others (particularly true for industrial, mechanical, structural engineers like James Watt) an apprenticeship served as their "university".  And others invented based on need or knowledge or simply because they were born at a moment in history when great change was occurring such as the industrial revolution.

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I think some people will have their minds made up about others based on what's on the bit of paper and decide before giving them a chance that they won't be right for the job.    

If people have a thing about uni educated people they will be a closed book and make the workplace very a difficult experience.  Of course they know all there is to know and don't want some young upstart with a uni education getting a chance to show them up so they have to do what they can to belittle the uni graduate from the first day on the job.

I remember when nursing became a uni degree there was great animosity towards the uni trainees from some of the old timers that continued for a long time.  

[chameleon54]

As I mentioned in a previous post, I am not denigrating university education. I understand it has a vitaly important role for some occupations.

If I was employing some-one to research and develop a new food crop plant, I would consider university training ( theoretical understanding ) essential in a candidate. If I was employing some-one to take the developed plant to the market, promote its use and have it adopted in a commercial sense, I would prefer a non university trained person with common sense and practical life skills. Something that is sadly lacking in university trained people. Both types of skills are equally important and neither would be successful without the other.

Martinis suggestion that people can not develop creative thinking and an enquiring mind without Uni education is a load of closed minded, arrogant  piffle.

[j*oono]

My boys are both studying.  One is an apprentice and so his education is paid for by the company.  My other son already has a job in his chosen field and is paying his own way to further himself.  Slowly.  It's tough when you are already working every day but have to do evening tertiary studies too at tafe.

[poddster]

There are successes and failures in both formally educated self taught people. What i have found is that some formally educated engineers have the theory down pat but are unable to implement it. Some tend to search for the elegant desigh where a simple

solution is all that is required.

Some self taught people fail to fully comprehend the requirement of the job at hand.

There are a lot who have changed the course of history without even a low education

John Moses Browning is one, some of his designs are still in use today 

If you have never heard of John Moses Browning Google is your friend 🙂

[poddster]

The end result is rewarding J and well worth the effort

[mtnlane]

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@chameleon54 wrote:

Martinis suggestion that people can not develop creative thinking and an enquiring mind without Uni education is a load of closed minded, arrogant  piffle.

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Mature Aged students (and I am not talking about those who have been out of school for just a couple of years) are very welcome at University because their life experience has already enabled them to develop the attribute of creative thinking outside the hot house of a Uni environment.  Their already developed enquiring minds were evidenced by their return to an educational establishment and their contributions were roundly welcomed in lectures and tutes - not only by the lecturers.   

[gleee58]

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@chameleon54 wrote:

As I mentioned in a previous post, I am not denigrating university education. I understand it has a vitaly important role for some occupations.

If I was employing some-one to research and develop a new food crop plant, I would consider university training ( theoretical understanding ) essential in a candidate. If I was employing some-one to take the developed plant to the market, promote its use and have it adopted in a commercial sense, I would prefer a non university trained person with common sense and practical life skills. Something that is sadly lacking in university trained people. Both types of skills are equally important and neither would be successful without the other.

Martinis suggestion that people can not develop creative thinking and an enquiring mind without Uni education is a load of closed minded, arrogant  piffle.

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To claim that people with a university education are lacking in life skills and common sense is every bit as closed minded and arrogant.

It's just not true that most uni graduate have no life experience, these days in particular. People are advancing their educations all over the place, in all sorts of ways.  They are not just sitting in class rooms learning out of textbooks.  They're making the new tech apps that old time farmers are using to improve their productivity.  People don't just stay in one job like they used to.  A lot of people work in one industry for a few years before deciding they want to change to a career they have more of an interest in, not just something they do because they have to "earn a living".  

Education does not have to expire when you leave the institution.  Lifetime learning is the ultimate objective.  Those people who left school at age 14 and developed mega farming machines didn't stop learning at age 14. It's the continued learning that allows their minds to be open and creative to develop new ideas and new machines.  

[chameleon54]

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@i-need-a-martini wrote:

---

@chameleon54 wrote:

---

To suggest that 99% of the population could not learn these skills without attending university is clearly a patronising nonsense. I think the learning of these skills is more related to personal intelligence than educational opportunities.  Using your theory many of the worlds most celebrated minds pre 1850,s could not have developed an enquiring mind, imagining possibilities and researching medical and technological projects as university education was not readily available in this period.  

One of the most intelligent people I know left school at age 14 and took over the running of his fathers farm on his dads untimely death. He has gone on to develop a profound knowledge and understanding of mechanical and engineering principles. He designs and builds huge farm machines, does all of his own mechanical and electrical work including servicing the modern computer systems used to operate farm machines.

In his spare time in the farm workshop, he has taken an old Holden 1970,s station wagon body and mounted it on a Toyota Landcruiser chassis equiped with a 350 Chev V8 motor to make a four wheel drive 1970 Holden. His engineering and workmanship was of such a high standard that his state registration and roadworthy authority allowed immediate registration. This may not excite some of the tertiary educated members on the forums, but anyone who has dealt with these authorities will understand the scale of this achievement.

To suggest that an enquiring and creative mind is strictly limited to those who have attended university shows a level of arrogance and  disappointing lack of understanding of the possabilities for those who have not had the opportunity, or who chose not to attend university.

---

I am not talking about skills. Neither did I say that enquiring or creative minds are strictly limited to those that attend university.  All 5 year olds have enquiring and creative minds and they haven't attended uni yet.

Your example shows you miss the meaning of what I am saying and your example illustrates perfectly what I am saying.

Your intelligent person (and I never said only people that go to university are intelligent BTW), clearly understands the process of machines from life on a farm and, as you say, has developed a profound knowledge which is enough to create and build his own machines and build a machine capable of being roadworthy. He has learnt through experience and has an outstanding set of skills because of this.

That isn't something he would ever learn at university. It's not what universities are about.

And I think you will find that most of the celebrated minds pre 1850's were cultivated in some way or other. Some had money. Others (like Thomas Edison or Frank Lloyd Wright) had mothers that cultivated what they needed. For others (particularly true for industrial, mechanical, structural engineers like James Watt) an apprenticeship served as their "university".  And others invented based on need or knowledge or simply because they were born at a moment in history when great change was occurring such as the industrial revolution.

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Martini - I think it is you who has missed the point of my example. The man mentioned in my previous post has an ENQUIRING MIND. This is why he read up and researched and trailed various ideas to develop his skills. He needed the CREATIVITY to conceive marrying the various car components together to successfully achieve a cohesive unit. He had to use LATERAL THINKING to imagine how the components could go together. He has a constant thirst for knowledge and learning and a constant desire to UNDERSTAND how things work, how they can be developed and changed for the better. All of this is revolves around the same thought process that you claim can only be learned at university. The fact that he has also developed allied PRACTICAL SKILLS to actually put his ideas into practice shows he is a much more rounded individual than the institutionalised university system usually turns out.

University education definitely has an important role to play in some occupations, but its importance in society has been greatly exaggerated to the extent that too many young people are going to uni to study subjects that are never going to help them to gain employment in jobs that don't exist.

PC catch phrases such as " Knowledge nation "  are a load of city centic bunkim that are not going to drive the growth required in the economy to maintain standards of living and employment opportunities for young Australians. We need to do a lot less talking about "stuff" and a whole lot more actually doing "stuff". 

[gleee58]

University/tertiary education is not by definition city centric education.