Russia - such a disgrace !

I don't know about anyone else. but I nor our business, is any longer buying anything remotely Russian.

 

This is not so much choosing to take a side, but merely not wanting to be seen as condoning recent events.

 

'Hands off Ukraine!' Russian protesters, celebrities risk arrest to denounce Putin's war (yahoo.com)

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Re: Russia - such a disgrace !

Was Australia 'invaded'?

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Re: Russia - such a disgrace !

I'm not trying to justify what Russia / Putin has done. No invasion of a sovereign country is right.  Just as the US was wrong to invade Iraq etc., so is Russia here! However, we are only seeing what our media wants us to see. Sure, a good deal of what they show is is happening. But, as time tells us, some of the picture we were shown and became emotionally reactive to can be misleading. And some of it turns out to be absolutely false!

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@twyngwyn wrote:

 

It's called propaganda...we are all guilty of it....we all have blood on our hands....just look at the latest from our MP's.....**bleep** on all sides...

 

History is always being re-written, due to the 'winners' writing it in the first place....but then the truth comes out and is constantly speculated upon.......Aborigines, Kennedy, Royal Family, East Timor, 9/11 etc etc etc


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Yes, true! And this is why now I seldom watch what is on TV.

You're right about the re-writing of history.

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Re: Russia - such a disgrace !

I also seldom watch tv....but the internet is a main contributor to propaganda...the world is shrinking and the 'powers that be' use the internet ALL THE TIME....we are hoodwinked at every click....do you agree?

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Re: Russia - such a disgrace !

4channel, I'll frame this in how I perceive what your post says. I don't wish to imply that you intend to create that perception. It is entirely possible that you are not aware of the subtext that your post was sending.

 

โLook, I disagree with what Russia has doneโž sounds as though you are trivialising it. Dismissive language includes the use of minimising words, words that signal Oh, all right, it's a bit bad, but don't make it seem bigger than it is. When โLook,โž prefaces โI disagree with what Russia has doneโž, whether you are aware of it or not, that is the impression that is being given: the trivialisation of the rest of the sentence.*

 

In fact, the trivialisation goes further.

 

  • Using a minimising word to trivialise the rest of the sentence;
  • Generalising what you are condemning - โNo invasion of another country is justifiedโž - rather than sticking to the current invasion and bombarding of Ukraine by Russia, because generalising takes the focus off the current invader and current invasion;
  • Condemning, but in a way that does not have much force behind it. โ... and I do condemn Putin for thatโž - note the use of the softening โdoโž before the verb โcondemnโž and the narrowing โfor thatโž which signals that the soft condemnation is only within certain parameters;
  • Using the word โbutโž directly afterwards, signalling that everything said before the โbutโž is to be topped or negated by what is said after the โbutโž; and
  • Blaming the victim. Because no country is perfect or โrighteousโž, use that to make a statement that plays right into Putin's handbook for justifying his actions. โUkraine is not a righteous country either.โž A parallel is perceived to be drawn between Russia's increasingly brutal invasion and Ukraine's defence against that invasion - or perhaps you are drawing a parallel between the brutal Russian invasion into a country that is NOT THEIRS and Ukraine's military trying to quell insurgency of Russian nationalists in two of its cities. I must say this... That is no parallel; there is no justification there for Russian invasion. Blaming Ukraine for the invasion or suggesting in any way that Ukraine asked for it or deserved it is categorically wrong.

 

Bear in mind that I continue to speak about perception. That is how I perceive what you wrote, and I think it is how quite a few others will  have perceived it as well; I am prepared to be corrected in that you didn't intend to create that perception.

 

 

 

This is not about the US invasion of Iraq. For the record, I did not support that, and was sceptical of the reasons espoused for that. Whatever reasons there were for the US to start that war, they were not the same as the reasons Putin had for starting this war, and we would be fools to think that they are identical situations. Let's focus on Ukraine/Russia.

 

 

 

*Let me give an example of the trivialising effect of โLook,โž before the rest of what is said. Consider how different is the effect when a murderer says in court โLook, I'm sorry about killing your sonโž, as opposed to โI'm sorry I killed your sonโž. In the first example, it's insultingly dismissive.

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Re: Russia - such a disgrace !

Have you ever thought of getting - help. ??

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Re: Russia - such a disgrace !


@countessalmirena wrote:

4channel, I'll frame this in how I perceive what your post says. I don't wish to imply that you intend to create that perception. It is entirely possible that you are not aware of the subtext that your post was sending.

 

โLook, I disagree with what Russia has doneโž sounds as though you are trivialising it. Dismissive language includes the use of minimising words, words that signal Oh, all right, it's a bit bad, but don't make it seem bigger than it is. When โLook,โž prefaces โI disagree with what Russia has doneโž, whether you are aware of it or not, that is the impression that is being given: the trivialisation of the rest of the sentence.*

 

In fact, the trivialisation goes further.

 

  • Using a minimising word to trivialise the rest of the sentence;
  • Generalising what you are condemning - โNo invasion of another country is justifiedโž - rather than sticking to the current invasion and bombarding of Ukraine by Russia, because generalising takes the focus off the current invader and current invasion;
  • Condemning, but in a way that does not have much force behind it. โ... and I do condemn Putin for thatโž - note the use of the softening โdoโž before the verb โcondemnโž and the narrowing โfor thatโž which signals that the soft condemnation is only within certain parameters;
  • Using the word โbutโž directly afterwards, signalling that everything said before the โbutโž is to be topped or negated by what is said after the โbutโž; and
  • Blaming the victim. Because no country is perfect or โrighteousโž, use that to make a statement that plays right into Putin's handbook for justifying his actions. โUkraine is not a righteous country either.โž A parallel is perceived to be drawn between Russia's increasingly brutal invasion and Ukraine's defence against that invasion - or perhaps you are drawing a parallel between the brutal Russian invasion into a country that is NOT THEIRS and Ukraine's military trying to quell insurgency of Russian nationalists in two of its cities. I must say this... That is no parallel; there is no justification there for Russian invasion. Blaming Ukraine for the invasion or suggesting in any way that Ukraine asked for it or deserved it is categorically wrong.

 

Bear in mind that I continue to speak about perception. That is how I perceive what you wrote, and I think it is how quite a few others will  have perceived it as well; I am prepared to be corrected in that you didn't intend to create that perception.

 

 

 

This is not about the US invasion of Iraq. For the record, I did not support that, and was sceptical of the reasons espoused for that. Whatever reasons there were for the US to start that war, they were not the same as the reasons Putin had for starting this war, and we would be fools to think that they are identical situations. Let's focus on Ukraine/Russia.

 

 

 

*Let me give an example of the trivialising effect of โLook,โž before the rest of what is said. Consider how different is the effect when a murderer says in court โLook, I'm sorry about killing your sonโž, as opposed to โI'm sorry I killed your sonโž. In the first example, it's insultingly dismissive.


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Well countessalmirena?                 I am not taking your bait.

 

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Re: Russia - such a disgrace !


@twyngwyn wrote:

Was Australia 'invaded'?


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The large area of land now called Australia was inhabited by many tribal linguistic societies,  communities. Along came England and committed mass murder and genocide. EVIL EVIL EVIL and the ongoing effects continue to this very day with an apathetic government (no matter who is elected) sitting in office with no interest in fixing the issue.

 


And Russia, without right is invading a country it has no right to invade. Yes, there may crimes, great cruelty committed against ethnic Russians in the Ukraine.  But at the end of the day, there's got to be a better way.

 

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@twyngwyn wrote:

I also seldom watch tv....but the internet is a main contributor to propaganda...the world is shrinking and the 'powers that be' use the internet ALL THE TIME....we are hoodwinked at every click....do you agree?


 

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There's propaganda everywhere. TV, newspapers, radio, and the internet. What can be attained on the internet is going to be a mix of the good and bad. It's up to the individual to use discernment. But given the fact that huge corporations sponsor major news outlets (meaning the major news is a stooge for the $$$$$$$$$)  then it stands to reason that the worst kind of propaganda is going to be where the money is!


With this issue of Russia, we would both be in agreement that Putin is doing a horrible thing.  The portrayal of what takes place is going to be a different view.

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Re: Russia - such a disgrace !

What I mean is that even though the civilian causalities and damage to infrastructure is going to be an immeasurable pain that Ukrainian people will suffer, some reports will later down the track be discovered to be false. We already know that from Iraq and going back further, Vietnam (Gulf of Tonkin incident), Laos etc.. Heck, look at Gulf War 1. Who among us at the time knew that the US was using depleted uranium shells to fire at tanks and the huge amount of birth defects resulting?

 

With this war and it is one, we have to look at many different venues to get a good picture of what is going on. Good info can be obtained from the internet. And  ... . "Oh look, he found that on the interent" ... Well now, that's just a term anyway to discredit anything other than what the mainstream media want to force feed us.

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Re: Russia - such a disgrace !

I do not post "bait".

 

 

 

Let's get back to the egregious situation in Ukraine. Many of the atrocities occurring there have been verified by Reuters; some have not been able to be verified. The attacks by the Russians upon agreed-upon humanitarian corridors are terrible.

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Re: Russia - such a disgrace !


@countessalmirena wrote:

I do not post "bait".

 

 

 

Let's get back to the egregious situation in Ukraine. Many of the atrocities occurring there have been verified by Reuters; some have not been able to be verified. The attacks by the Russians upon agreed-upon humanitarian corridors are terrible.


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Ha, and what Reuters says is gospel. Ha! Well,  Reuters has long been suspected of being horrendously biased and dare I say .... the "it rhymes with erupt" word.

 

Spoiler

 

BTW: The chairman and former Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of the Reuters news agency - James C. Smith - is a top investor and board member for pharmaceuticals giant Pfizer.




Yes Russia is wrong and this attack needs to cease immediately!

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