Should we teach both Evolution and Intelligent Design in science classes?

[the_bob_delusion]

Should we teach both and let the students decide for themselves?

Go

[the_bob_delusion]

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

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@curmu-curmu wrote:

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

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@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

Sorry, I keep mixing up EVOLUTION with ABIOGENESIS. But then, so do most people who say they believe in EVOLUTION.

I don't see how you can confuse them. They are totally separate concepts

. Many Christians believe in evolution, but not in abiogenesis. i.e they believe God created some form of microbial life, which over billions of years evolved into all the species we see today.

Most scientistshowever, do believe in abiogenesis i.e. that life originally arose from nonliving matter. and over billions of years evolved into all the species we see today.

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As I have said on here MANY times, I believe that animals, plants etc can mutate and so become a new species of that particular animal or plant - eg Elephants - Indian and African - but they cannot mutate into another entirely different animal. I believe that things can become bigger or smaller depending on environment. So, if that is evolution so be it.

I must admit, I have never met a Christian who believes that God created microbial life (only) and that evolved into all the life forms we have today. I admit that there are some who still believe the earth is only 6,000 years old, but I have never believed that. It seems totally silly to me that some say Dinosaurs died out at Noah's flood - which I have heard some say. I believe that Dinosaurs died out Millions of years ago.

I do NOT believe that LIFE can come from nonliving matter - there have been thousands of experiments to try to prove this and ALL HAVE FAILED.

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Genesis 2:7King James Version (KJV)

 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Life from nonliving matter?  Nah. Can't happen!

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You are talking 'life from nonliving matter' WITHOUT ANY INTERVENTION. tHE ABOVE is talking about life BEING GIVEN to a man, who we all know if mostly water and carbon and a bit of other stuff.

Think about a piece of metal - laying on the ground - there is NO WAY that piece of metal can form itself into a knife without INTERVENTION by a creator - ie a man/woman who knows how to form it into a knife. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.

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You're using the argument from ignorance and God of the Gaps. We don't know how it happened. THerefore, *insert your preferred* God. 

[curmu-curmu]

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@the_bob_delusion wrote:

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

Sorry, I keep mixing up EVOLUTION with ABIOGENESIS. But then, so do most people who say they believe in EVOLUTION.

And of course, Charles Darwin said that the Australian Aboriginals were NOT AS EVOLVED AS WHITES - so does everyone believe that?

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No we don't believe that. There's no evidence to back that up. THe statement itself doesn't even make sense. We judge a statement by its merit and varifiability not on the authority. If some guy call Jesus say he is the son of God, would you believe that? If not, what evidence or proof would you need to accept the claim. 

Why do you mix up evolution with abiogenesis???

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Creationists love to muddy the waters.

It's akin to monkeys throwing their feces - if they do it often enough, some of it just may stick!

It's also interesting to observe EVERY argument that been postulated for creationism, is either totally defunct and debunked, or is an accusation to prove them wrong. It's a typical creationist ploy, to shift the burden of proof. I call it deflect, deny and obfuscate!

[the_bob_delusion]

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

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@the_bob_delusion wrote:

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

Sorry, I keep mixing up EVOLUTION with ABIOGENESIS. But then, so do most people who say they believe in EVOLUTION.

And of course, Charles Darwin said that the Australian Aboriginals were NOT AS EVOLVED AS WHITES - so does everyone believe that?

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No we don't believe that. There's no evidence to back that up. THe statement itself doesn't even make sense. We judge a statement by its merit and varifiability not on the authority. If some guy call Jesus say he is the son of God, would you believe that? If not, what evidence or proof would you need to accept the claim. 

Why do you mix up evolution with abiogenesis???

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Simply because, as I said above, most people do CONFUSE THE TWO. Ask the average Joe or Josephine in the street what their definition of evolution is and I'll bet they say 'life from nothing'.

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Really??? Most average Joe would not confused the two. However I wouldn't say the same for most average religious people. 

[curmu-curmu]

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

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@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

I do NOT believe that LIFE can come from nonliving matter - there have been thousands of experiments to try to prove this and ALL HAVE FAILED.

That's because it only had to happen once in a billion years.

Try this little experiment - take a pack of cards, shuffle them, then lay them out one by one on the table making a note of the order in which you turn them up. Now gather them up, reshuffle the pack and do it again......and again......and again. How many lifetimes do you imagine it would take to get the same result again? (I cant recall the number but I do know it was calculated to be astronomical) and yet it happened, just once, for you.

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But no matter how many billion times you shuffle the cards, it will NEVER produce a new card - without intervention. So, nonliving matter, no matter how many billions of years you sit looking at it, will NEVER come to life.

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You know...these arguments were interesting - when I first heard them about 10 years, and 100 times ago.

Now - they don't even justify a response, because any creationist worthy of the name, would have visited sites like Answers In Genesis, and observed that even they don't recommend using them anymore.

[curmu-curmu]

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

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But no matter how many billion times you shuffle the cards, it will NEVER produce a new card - without intervention. So, nonliving matter, no matter how many billions of years you sit looking at it, will NEVER come to life.

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Exactly what was I said about closed-mindedness?

[rabbitearbandicoot]

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@curmu-curmu wrote:

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@the_bob_delusion wrote:

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

Sorry, I keep mixing up EVOLUTION with ABIOGENESIS. But then, so do most people who say they believe in EVOLUTION.

And of course, Charles Darwin said that the Australian Aboriginals were NOT AS EVOLVED AS WHITES - so does everyone believe that?

---

No we don't believe that. There's no evidence to back that up. THe statement itself doesn't even make sense. We judge a statement by its merit and varifiability not on the authority. If some guy call Jesus say he is the son of God, would you believe that? If not, what evidence or proof would you need to accept the claim. 

Why do you mix up evolution with abiogenesis???

---

Creationists love to muddy the waters.

It's akin to monkeys throwing their feces - if they do it often enough, some of it just may stick!

It's also interesting to observe EVERY argument that been postulated for creationism, is either totally defunct and debunked, or is an accusation to prove them wrong. It's a typical creationist ploy, to shift the burden of proof. I call it deflect, deny and obfuscate!

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You keep saying that Creation has been proven wrong. So, show me one of the arguments that have been defunct or debunked?

 - you are trying to convince ME that there is proof of life-from-nothing. I asked you to show me - so far all you have said is that I am shifting the burden of proof, but it's you that's doing that. Show me some proof and I'll revise my thinking immediately- there ya go, open mind.

[rabbitearbandicoot]

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@curmu-curmu wrote:

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

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But no matter how many billion times you shuffle the cards, it will NEVER produce a new card - without intervention. So, nonliving matter, no matter how many billions of years you sit looking at it, will NEVER come to life.

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Exactly what was I said about closed-mindedness?

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You mean I am wrong? It will come to life? Well, bugga me. I'd better go and check my car - maybe it's evolved into a Porsche. Hang on a tick.

[the_great_she_elephant]

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But no matter how many billion times you shuffle the cards, it will NEVER produce a new card - without intervention. So, nonliving matter, no matter how many billions of years you sit looking at it, will NEVER come to life.

But if you combine one part of hydrogen with one part of oxygen it turns into water.

[curmu-curmu]

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

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You keep saying that Creation has been proven wrong. So, show me one of the arguments that have been defunct or debunked?

 - you are trying to convince ME that there is proof of life-from-nothing. I asked you to show me - so far all you have said is that I am shifting the burden of proof, but it's you that's doing that. Show me some proof and I'll revise my thinking immediately- there ya go, open mind.

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I'll just refer you back to post 29.

[rabbitearbandicoot]

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@the_bob_delusion wrote:

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

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@curmu-curmu wrote:

---

@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

---

@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

Sorry, I keep mixing up EVOLUTION with ABIOGENESIS. But then, so do most people who say they believe in EVOLUTION.

I don't see how you can confuse them. They are totally separate concepts

. Many Christians believe in evolution, but not in abiogenesis. i.e they believe God created some form of microbial life, which over billions of years evolved into all the species we see today.

Most scientistshowever, do believe in abiogenesis i.e. that life originally arose from nonliving matter. and over billions of years evolved into all the species we see today.

---

As I have said on here MANY times, I believe that animals, plants etc can mutate and so become a new species of that particular animal or plant - eg Elephants - Indian and African - but they cannot mutate into another entirely different animal. I believe that things can become bigger or smaller depending on environment. So, if that is evolution so be it.

I must admit, I have never met a Christian who believes that God created microbial life (only) and that evolved into all the life forms we have today. I admit that there are some who still believe the earth is only 6,000 years old, but I have never believed that. It seems totally silly to me that some say Dinosaurs died out at Noah's flood - which I have heard some say. I believe that Dinosaurs died out Millions of years ago.

I do NOT believe that LIFE can come from nonliving matter - there have been thousands of experiments to try to prove this and ALL HAVE FAILED.

---

Genesis 2:7King James Version (KJV)

 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Life from nonliving matter?  Nah. Can't happen!

---

You are talking 'life from nonliving matter' WITHOUT ANY INTERVENTION. tHE ABOVE is talking about life BEING GIVEN to a man, who we all know if mostly water and carbon and a bit of other stuff.

Think about a piece of metal - laying on the ground - there is NO WAY that piece of metal can form itself into a knife without INTERVENTION by a creator - ie a man/woman who knows how to form it into a knife. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.

---

You're using the argument from ignorance and God of the Gaps. We don't know how it happened. THerefore, *insert your preferred* God. 

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Ignorance? Bob? Do you know something that thousands of scientists don't? Perhaps you can change base metal into gold too?