Should we teach both Evolution and Intelligent Design in science classes?

[the_bob_delusion]

Should we teach both and let the students decide for themselves?

Go

[i-need-a-martini]

Yeah me too. I've run out of steam anyway.

'night!

[k0llectable5]

@i-need-a-martini wrote:

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@secondhand-wonderland wrote:

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@i-need-a-martini wrote:

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So how can they be "indoctrinated" if (as you yourself point out) you have made assumptions about what they were leaving OUT of your science class?

It seems to me you went into that classroom already "indoctrinated" by religion and a closed mind.

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They are indoctrinated because theories are presented as hard facts, absolute truths if you like. 

Please dont resort to personal judgements.  I actually found the classes to be fascinating in high school and in university.  You have no idea how I was raised or how open or closed my mind is.  When debating someone try not to resort to ad hominem attacks, it's the first sign of intellectual weakness...

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Actually science is rarely presented as hard facts. Facts in science have foundations that can be proven. Nothing more. Nothing less.

In regards to how open your mind was or wasn't  in high school, I have no idea. I can only go by your statement about how you approached the learning in your classroom. You stated that you 'knew', by ommission, that the class on evolution was by default saying god didn't exist. That means you brought your own accepted set of beliefs into the classroom and weren't prepared to accept that there could be an opposite view. That is the very  definitiono f indoctrination isn't it?.

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No not at all.  What I'm saying is that we'd been geared up to think that learning about evolution was somehow going to enlighten us.  It really was an exciting topic at school, as classmates we spent alot of time outside the classroom talking about it and they left it untill 4th term so we had to wait all year for the lessons on evolution. 

Evolution does inadvertantly discredit the existence of God though doesn't it?  As you just said it's actually an opposite view to that of a creationist or Christian.  So it makes no difference whether they mention God or not when teaching evolution, the sheer idea of evolution makes kids contemplate the existence of God. (which is a necessary thing dont get me wrong, I think we should question everything) 

[k0llectable5]

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@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

What you don't realise is, you can be religious and still believe evolution. 

I'm so glad you just said that.  It's refreshing to see an athiest admit to evolution being a belief system

What is your definition of a 'belief system?

Many religious people accept the theory of evolution, but they believe evolution started via biogenesis - that the first, microbial  life was created by God and evolved over billions of years into all the species we see today.

They do not believe evolution started via abiogenesis - that the first microbial life evolved from nonliving matter and was not created by God.. 

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Something is a belief system if it requires a leap of faith.  Religion of course is the perfect example.  But imo the idea of billions of years of time also requires a leap of faith to accept (as a concept, regardless of carbon dating techniques and other ways science determines the age of a fossil)  the idea of life evolving from nonlife also requires a leap of faith imo.  

Thats why I see evolution a belief system too. 

[k0llectable5]

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the_great_she_elephant wrote:

What you don't realise is, you can be religious and still believe evolution. 

I'm so glad you just said that.  It's refreshing to see an athiest admit to evolution being a belief system

What is your definition of a 'belief system?

Many religious people accept the theory of evolution, but they believe evolution started via biogenesis - that the first, microbial  life was created by God and evolved over billions of years into all the species we see today.

They do not believe evolution started via abiogenesis - that the first microbial life evolved from nonliving matter and was not created by God.. 

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Something is a belief system if it requires a leap of faith.  Religion of course is the perfect example.  But imo the idea of billions of years of time also requires a leap of faith to accept (as a concept, regardless of carbon dating techniques and other ways science determines the age of a fossil)  the idea of life evolving from nonlife also requires a leap of faith imo.  

Thats why I see evolution as a belief system too. 

[the_great_she_elephant]

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@secondhand-wonderland wrote:

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@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

What you don't realise is, you can be religious and still believe evolution. 

I'm so glad you just said that.  It's refreshing to see an athiest admit to evolution being a belief system

What is your definition of a 'belief system?

Many religious people accept the theory of evolution, but they believe evolution started via biogenesis - that the first, microbial  life was created by God and evolved over billions of years into all the species we see today.

They do not believe evolution started via abiogenesis - that the first microbial life evolved from nonliving matter and was not created by God.. 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Something is a belief system if it requires a leap of faith.  Religion of course is the perfect example.  But imo the idea of billions of years of time also requires a leap of faith to accept (as a concept, regardless of carbon dating techniques and other ways science determines the age of a fossil)  the idea of life evolving from nonlife also requires a leap of faith imo.  

Thats why I see evolution as a belief system too. 

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But evolution doesn't require a leap of faith. It requires the study of geology, biology, paleontology, botany ,chemistry and just about every natural science you can think of, it requires the careful examination of all the evidence provided and a  critical evaluation of that evidence. So far, every single discovery made has strengthened the case for evolution and not a single one has cast doubt on it.

(and yes, I do know there have been fakes, but they don't disprove evolution, they only prove there are some unscrupulous people around.)

And no scientist has ever declared it a proven fact that life on earth developed from nonlife. What they say is that, given all the evidence it seems the most likely and logical explanation. There is also  currently an hypothosis that the very first form of life here   may have originated in space and been carried  to earth by a meteorite, but  at present it is only an hypothosis - there is not enough evidence to make it a more likely proposition than that life originated here.

[curmu-curmu]

Yep - you're right. Evolution IS a belief system...but only to the untrained, unwashed masses! We, as non-scientists, are not trained in the methodologies which assist us in coming to logical, intelligent conclusions, so have to accept that which seems to make more sense to us - by weighing the evidence, NOT using any preconcieved ideas drummed into us since we could talk, and using our own level of intelligence to work out which hypothesis best suits the available evidence.

Or, we could as Bob indicated earlier, just close our minds to any and all evidence, and just insert the god of our choosing! A far easier, and safer option - particularly if you, as most theists are, petrified of the concept of death and its permanence. No, far better to tell your subconscious that there's an afterlife, to salve your conscience, and help you sleep at night.

I for one, am a staunch atheist, but will readily admit that I really don't know as much as science in the concept of abiogenesis, but am willing to accept that this is a far more likely scenario than a magical sky daddy who breathed life into mud, built all of the universe, intervened so heavily in the O .T, then curiously 'went dark' from then on.

Interestingly, theists will tell you that their god doesn't intervene, so as not to infringe on human free will - yet even if this god were to somehow prove its existence, this alone would not negate our free will to accept or reject him - we do it all the time even now.

But then in the next breath, beleivers will claim how wonderful their god is, when he saved one drowing woman, or saved one baby out of thousands killed in an earthquake/tsunami,mudslide, etc... Or helped them find their lost car keys! Sorry...you can't have it both ways!

So yes...I do have a belief system. In fact I have several. I just don't believe in ephemeral, magical deities who rule over us. Particularly one with so little proof or justification.

I've said it elsewhere, and it's worth repeating here.

That people can choose to remain so wilfully ignorant, in today's educated and enlightened society, should be regarded as a form of mentall illness - and treated accordingly.

[punch*drunk]

My kids go to a Christian school and one of their topics at the moment is "Has science killed Christianity". I think they are having a debate about it. I hadn't taken too much notice of the subject but after reading this thread I may just ask them how it went and what was raised on iether side of the discussion.

[rabbitearbandicoot]

"That people can choose to remain so wilfully ignorant, in today's educated and enlightened society, should be regarded as a form of mentall illness - and treated accordingly."

Sorry, I didn't have any education and even if I did, my lowly IQ would not have been able to absorb itl.

Perhaps you could help me understand by explaining it to me in words of no more than 2 syllables. 

Let's see now, life came from non-life. A bunch of amino acids that didn't exist, formed together to make a microbial single cell life form - right, got that bit.

.... wind the clock forward a few billion years ... and here we are.

Can you please fill in the missing bits for me because my tiny little brain can't quite handle the rest.

[myoclon1cjerk]

There a books that explain it.As far as 'free will' goes,there's a lot of scientific debate on how much of it we actualy have.
I'm late for a reading on psychic TV.

[curmu-curmu]

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

"That people can choose to remain so wilfully ignorant, in today's educated and enlightened society, should be regarded as a form of mentall illness - and treated accordingly."

Sorry, I didn't have any education and even if I did, my lowly IQ would not have been able to absorb itl.

Perhaps you could help me understand by explaining it to me in words of no more than 2 syllables. 

Let's see now, life came from non-life. A bunch of amino acids that didn't exist, formed together to make a microbial single cell life form - right, got that bit.

.... wind the clock forward a few billion years ... and here we are.

Can you please fill in the missing bits for me because my tiny little brain can't quite handle the rest.

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Do you really expect me to fall for your 'I'm just a poor, uneducated slob' routine?

Sorry, but after reading your posts in other threads, I'm inclined to believe that you are in fact, an erudite, intelligent person - and I'm not about to fall into a petty little trap, nor rise to the bait.

That you choose to portray this homespun, backwards persona, suggests far more than you'd wish it to, as well...

So again, sorry...this little black duck's not falling for it.