Should we teach both Evolution and Intelligent Design in science classes?

[the_bob_delusion]

Should we teach both and let the students decide for themselves?

Go

[k0llectable5]

far more palatable than a magical skydaddy!

Therein lies your first major problem.  Something being more palatable than something else.  I have no problem with whatever people want to believe in so long as they admit when they are "believing" as opposed to "knowing" the absolute truth...

[rabbitearbandicoot]

---

@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

Sorry, I keep mixing up EVOLUTION with ABIOGENESIS. But then, so do most people who say they believe in EVOLUTION.

I don't see how you can confuse them. They are totally separate concepts

. Many Christians believe in evolution, but not in abiogenesis. i.e they believe God created some form of microbial life, which over billions of years evolved into all the species we see today.

Most scientistshowever, do believe in abiogenesis i.e. that life originally arose from nonliving matter. and over billions of years evolved into all the species we see today.

---

As I have said on here MANY times, I believe that animals, plants etc can mutate and so become a new species of that particular animal or plant - eg Elephants - Indian and African - but they cannot mutate into another entirely different animal. I believe that things can become bigger or smaller depending on environment. So, if that is evolution so be it.

I must admit, I have never met a Christian who believes that God created microbial life (only) and that evolved into all the life forms we have today. I admit that there are some who still believe the earth is only 6,000 years old, but I have never believed that. It seems totally silly to me that some say Dinosaurs died out at Noah's flood - which I have heard some say. I believe that Dinosaurs died out Millions of years ago.

I do NOT believe that LIFE can come from nonliving matter - there have been thousands of experiments to try to prove this and ALL HAVE FAILED.

[curmu-curmu]

---

@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

---

@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

Sorry, I keep mixing up EVOLUTION with ABIOGENESIS. But then, so do most people who say they believe in EVOLUTION.

I don't see how you can confuse them. They are totally separate concepts

. Many Christians believe in evolution, but not in abiogenesis. i.e they believe God created some form of microbial life, which over billions of years evolved into all the species we see today.

Most scientistshowever, do believe in abiogenesis i.e. that life originally arose from nonliving matter. and over billions of years evolved into all the species we see today.

---

As I have said on here MANY times, I believe that animals, plants etc can mutate and so become a new species of that particular animal or plant - eg Elephants - Indian and African - but they cannot mutate into another entirely different animal. I believe that things can become bigger or smaller depending on environment. So, if that is evolution so be it.

I must admit, I have never met a Christian who believes that God created microbial life (only) and that evolved into all the life forms we have today. I admit that there are some who still believe the earth is only 6,000 years old, but I have never believed that. It seems totally silly to me that some say Dinosaurs died out at Noah's flood - which I have heard some say. I believe that Dinosaurs died out Millions of years ago.

I do NOT believe that LIFE can come from nonliving matter - there have been thousands of experiments to try to prove this and ALL HAVE FAILED.

---

Genesis 2:7King James Version (KJV)

 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Life from nonliving matter?  Nah. Can't happen!

[rabbitearbandicoot]

---

@curmu-curmu wrote:

---

@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

---

@curmu-curmu wrote:

---

@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

---

@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

Sorry, I keep mixing up EVOLUTION with ABIOGENESIS. But then, so do most people who say they believe in EVOLUTION.

And of course, Charles Darwin said that the Australian Aboriginals were NOT AS EVOLVED AS WHITES - so does everyone believe that?

unlike religious faith it is

---

That's the thing about a scientific theory - unlike religious faith it is open to scrutiny and constantly being tested and refined. When Darwin   first proposed his theory of evolution he was venturing into uncharted territory - the amazing thing is not that one of his conclusions has been proved wrong but that the overwhelming majority have been proved absolutely correct. 

---

And sadly for creationists, every tenet, and I do mean every one, has been thoroughly dispelled and proven incorrect time and again - but the old saying is just so apt with creationists - 'you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink!'

Or in the case of creationists, 'you can lead a creationist to evidence, but you can't make him think!'

---

OK. I have never seen any of these proofs, so please show me some. Just one example.

---

You know, I'd really like to do just that, but given the penchant for creationists to blindly ignore any evidence that contradicts their preconcieved notions and christian beliefs, I'd be just wasting my time.

If you really, and I do mean really, wanted to see proof of evolution, it's not that hard to google it. Try googling 'ring species' for a start.

But then again, THAT would require an open mind - and creationists are known unequivocally for their closed-mindedness.

I've had these arguments before in other places, and observed time and again, that evidence against creationism is summarily dismissed by them every time - so futile exercises are not my forte. Also factor in that I'm no scientist, but find accepting the proofs of evolution is far more palatable than a magical skydaddy!

---

Pot / Kettle - 'Open Mind' - are you telling me you have an open mind and I don't? Sorry, can't believe that.

[the_bob_delusion]

---

@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

Sorry, I keep mixing up EVOLUTION with ABIOGENESIS. But then, so do most people who say they believe in EVOLUTION.

And of course, Charles Darwin said that the Australian Aboriginals were NOT AS EVOLVED AS WHITES - so does everyone believe that?

---

No we don't believe that. There's no evidence to back that up. THe statement itself doesn't even make sense. We judge a statement by its merit and varifiability not on the authority. If some guy call Jesus say he is the son of God, would you believe that? If not, what evidence or proof would you need to accept the claim. 

Why do you mix up evolution with abiogenesis???

[rabbitearbandicoot]

---

@curmu-curmu wrote:

---

@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

---

@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

Sorry, I keep mixing up EVOLUTION with ABIOGENESIS. But then, so do most people who say they believe in EVOLUTION.

I don't see how you can confuse them. They are totally separate concepts

. Many Christians believe in evolution, but not in abiogenesis. i.e they believe God created some form of microbial life, which over billions of years evolved into all the species we see today.

Most scientistshowever, do believe in abiogenesis i.e. that life originally arose from nonliving matter. and over billions of years evolved into all the species we see today.

---

As I have said on here MANY times, I believe that animals, plants etc can mutate and so become a new species of that particular animal or plant - eg Elephants - Indian and African - but they cannot mutate into another entirely different animal. I believe that things can become bigger or smaller depending on environment. So, if that is evolution so be it.

I must admit, I have never met a Christian who believes that God created microbial life (only) and that evolved into all the life forms we have today. I admit that there are some who still believe the earth is only 6,000 years old, but I have never believed that. It seems totally silly to me that some say Dinosaurs died out at Noah's flood - which I have heard some say. I believe that Dinosaurs died out Millions of years ago.

I do NOT believe that LIFE can come from nonliving matter - there have been thousands of experiments to try to prove this and ALL HAVE FAILED.

---

Genesis 2:7King James Version (KJV)

 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Life from nonliving matter?  Nah. Can't happen!

---

You are talking 'life from nonliving matter' WITHOUT ANY INTERVENTION. tHE ABOVE is talking about life BEING GIVEN to a man, who we all know if mostly water and carbon and a bit of other stuff.

Think about a piece of metal - laying on the ground - there is NO WAY that piece of metal can form itself into a knife without INTERVENTION by a creator - ie a man/woman who knows how to form it into a knife. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.

[the_great_she_elephant]

I do NOT believe that LIFE can come from nonliving matter - there have been thousands of experiments to try to prove this and ALL HAVE FAILED.

That's because it only had to happen once in a billion years.

Try this little experiment - take a pack of cards, shuffle them, then lay them out one by one on the table making a note of the order in which you turn them up. Now gather them up, reshuffle the pack and do it again......and again......and again. How many lifetimes do you imagine it would take to get the same result again? (I cant recall the number but I do know it was calculated to be astronomical) and yet it happened, just once, for you.

[rabbitearbandicoot]

---

@the_bob_delusion wrote:

---

@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

Sorry, I keep mixing up EVOLUTION with ABIOGENESIS. But then, so do most people who say they believe in EVOLUTION.

And of course, Charles Darwin said that the Australian Aboriginals were NOT AS EVOLVED AS WHITES - so does everyone believe that?

---

No we don't believe that. There's no evidence to back that up. THe statement itself doesn't even make sense. We judge a statement by its merit and varifiability not on the authority. If some guy call Jesus say he is the son of God, would you believe that? If not, what evidence or proof would you need to accept the claim. 

Why do you mix up evolution with abiogenesis???

---

Simply because, as I said above, most people do CONFUSE THE TWO. Ask the average Joe or Josephine in the street what their definition of evolution is and I'll bet they say 'life from nothing'.

[the_great_she_elephant]

Think about a piece of metal - laying on the ground - there is NO WAY that piece of metal can form itself into a knife without INTERVENTION by a creator - ie a man/woman who knows how to form it into a knife. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.

What on earth does that have to do with evoloution?

[rabbitearbandicoot]

---

@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

I do NOT believe that LIFE can come from nonliving matter - there have been thousands of experiments to try to prove this and ALL HAVE FAILED.

That's because it only had to happen once in a billion years.

Try this little experiment - take a pack of cards, shuffle them, then lay them out one by one on the table making a note of the order in which you turn them up. Now gather them up, reshuffle the pack and do it again......and again......and again. How many lifetimes do you imagine it would take to get the same result again? (I cant recall the number but I do know it was calculated to be astronomical) and yet it happened, just once, for you.

---

But no matter how many billion times you shuffle the cards, it will NEVER produce a new card - without intervention. So, nonliving matter, no matter how many billions of years you sit looking at it, will NEVER come to life.