on โ21-06-2020 07:43 PM
on โ22-06-2020 11:27 AM
All lives matter and taking a life should be a serious decision.
How much a life matters though is a question of degree.
I believe a lot of responses eg the recent rallies, are due to media hype. If George Floyd's death had just been a short news report about a US death in police custody and polce officer charged, people here would have barely noticed it between the other news reports. People are copy cats. They saw reports of riots & protests over in US so they joined in.
A while back, I read about a woman over in one of those troubled countries in Middle east i think it may have been. Sentenced to being stoned to death, I think for being raped or something like that. Didn't notice any massive marches here to protest against the authorities in that country. A few grumbles here for sure, but nothing remotely like the response for Floyd who let's face it, was a thug high on drugs.
When times are good, we can afford to pretend that all lives mattering means all lives are of equal value or worth or that it means all lives need to continue.
But realistically, it doesn't mean that.
Decisions are made every day. Consider the questions of abortion, euthanasia, capital punishment, access to life saving drugs or procedures, transplants etc
It can sometimes be a sliding scale of priorities.
Chameleon, I hear you about mental illnesses. I don't know all the details about the shooting on the Monash but I do know police here usually don't shoot as a first resort and from memory, they didn't in that case. They used taser but were under attack. Unfortunately just because someone has a mental illness it doesn't mean they cannot be extremely dangerous. I'm not defending all police attacks (or even that one in particular as I don't know the ins & outs), don't get me wrong, but sometimes it might come down to 2 choices, the life of an attacker or the life of the officer
on โ22-06-2020 02:15 PM
Ok, Joe made a little joke there, but really, not all lives matter.
Lives like Ivan Milat, for instance. Why wasn't he just hanged?
on โ22-06-2020 06:37 PM
Chameleon wrote: I had better stop now before I say what I really think about the hypocritical lefty, flag waving populists who have a lot to say about the latest cause but do absolutely nothing practical or even show any concern about the real, gritty problems disadvantaged people face here in Australia...
October this year has ben designated Breast Cancer Awareness Month and, no doubt, during that month, many posters here will be wearing pink ribbons, attending rallies and functions and discussing breast cancer on this board. Are you going to call us hypocritical lefty, flag waving populists for having a lot to say about the latest cause andnot showing concern for the 'real gritty problems' of those suffering from other forms of cancer.
โ22-06-2020 07:07 PM - edited โ22-06-2020 07:10 PM
@the_great_she_elephant wrote:Chameleon wrote: I had better stop now before I say what I really think about the hypocritical lefty, flag waving populists who have a lot to say about the latest cause but do absolutely nothing practical or even show any concern about the real, gritty problems disadvantaged people face here in Australia...
October this year has ben designated Breast Cancer Awareness Month and, no doubt, during that month, many posters here will be wearing pink ribbons, attending rallies and functions and discussing breast cancer on this board. Are you going to call us hypocritical lefty, flag waving populists for having a lot to say about the latest cause andnot showing concern for the 'real gritty problems' of those suffering from other forms of cancer.
No.... My wife is just recovering from breast cancer. Many of her friends have breast cancer. ( wife attended the funeral of one who died last week from breast cancer ) Some of my relatives including a young 30 year old woman have also died from breast cancer.
It is one of the real, genuine gritty problems affecting tens of thousands of Australians everyday. .................Unlike the unfortunate death of a black man at the hands of police in America.
Kazumi summed it up pretty well in a post on the " please protest some other time thread ".
" Sadly, number of my friends, some near 80, have marched. One actually said that she has been in isolation (with her husband and 1/2 dozen of grand kids) on their country property, and she needed to be with people, so travelled to Sydney for the protest. "
For many ( probably the vast majority ) of people, trendy lefty flag waving rallies and protests are simply a social event. A chance to join with others and feel a part of a group. A sense of belonging. Unfortunately in the rush to be a part of the " special group " ( including on this forum ) many simply parrot the latest lines, buzzwords and simplistic protest slogans without any real understanding of the complexity of many issues.
This gives rise to hypocrisy which is illustrated perfectly by all the fuss on these boards about the " black lives matter " death of Floyd in America while at the same time completely ignoring a similar death of a mentally ill person at the hands of police here in Australia. Also ignoring the fact that 49% of prison inmates have been diagnosed with a mental health illness compared to 28% of prisoners having Aboriginal ancestry. ( Yes there would be many aboriginal prisoners that also have diagnosed mental illness ). Mental health incarceration and exchanges with police are a much bigger problem in Australia than aboriginal incarceration etc, but is completely ignored because it is not a sexy flag waving opportunity.
Not only do the lefty special groups ignore the much bigger problems, they take great offence at anyone who dares to point it out, denigrating their views and making derogatory personal comments. Sorry, but many of them are just a bunch of populist hypocrites.
on โ22-06-2020 07:21 PM
@chameleon54 wrote:While everyone was marching in the streets with banners proclaiming " black lives matter " in response to the Floyde death in America, police in Australia shot and killed a man armed with a pocket knife and suffering a mental health episode on the Monash freeway............ His life didn't matter............ The regulars on these boards barely even mentioned it as it wasn't the latest lefty hug fest, buzz word. There's nothing sexy about a person having a mental health breakdown. ......
Did the police need to shoot him dead ? Dunno, but what I do know is I have disarmed large knives and restrained a young woman suffering with mental health issues twice this year and I wasn't wearing a stab vest, carrying pepper spray and armed with battens and tazers. There wasn't two or three of me and I haven't had months of formal police training on physical restraint methods. To say I,m disgusted with both the police and those on these boards who claim to care about disadvantaged people is an understatement.
I had better stop now before I say what I really think about the hypocritical lefty, flag waving populists who have a lot to say about the latest cause but do absolutely nothing practical or even show any concern about the real, gritty problems disadvantaged people face here in Australia...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-28/police-shoot-man-dead-on-monash-freeway-in-melbourne/12295462
In the State of Victoria a mental health wrap means the end of independent progress and meaningful socio and economic development , with any prior established peer groups systematically dismantled and status whispered about where ever one might find one's self , with daily grinding psychological bludgeoning from the well meaning the only expectation, where even the most cursory expression of human consideration is met with stunned astonishment and profound wonder -
conclusion : suicide by police
on โ22-06-2020 07:38 PM
Suicide by police is not the only problem. A much bigger issue is harassment, discrimination and physical violence by police against those with mental health issues. This is exactly the same sort of treatment indigenous Australians face, but on a much wider scale and affecting more people than police harassment of " black Australians ". This is exactly my point. Police harassment and violence is directed at a number of minorities including " black " people, those with mental illness, the homeless and families of low social economic status.
Its not just " black lives " that matter, all lives matter, and its not just " black people " that are being oppressed by police in Australia it is all minorities. To suggest otherwise is both discriminatory and extremely hypocritical..
on โ22-06-2020 07:56 PM
When you write police harassment, discrimination and violence, are you suggesting the problem applies to the police service, the majority or the minority within the service? Making generalised statements about the police isn't helpful when trying to understand the depth of the problem. It only contributes to the attitude that the police are the bad guys. I don't think that's fair to the good guys (and gals) within the service who risk their safety to protect us.
on โ22-06-2020 08:00 PM
@chameleon54 wrote:Suicide by police is not the only problem. A much bigger issue is harassment, discrimination and physical violence by police against those with mental health issues. This is exactly the same sort of treatment indigenous Australians face, but on a much wider scale and affecting more people than police harassment of " black Australians ". This is exactly my point. Police harassment and violence is directed at a number of minorities including " black " people, those with mental illness, the homeless and families of low social economic status.
Its not just " black lives " that matter, all lives matter, and its not just " black people " that are being oppressed by police in Australia it is all minorities. To suggest otherwise is both discriminatory and extremely hypocritical..
All cancers matter. To suggest otherwise is both discriminatory and extremely hypocritical. That doesn't mean it is hypocritcal to dedicate a special month to targetting one partiular kind. And in the same way, while all lives matter, it is not hypocritical to dedicate a special protest to targetting injustices committed against one particuar group.
โ22-06-2020 08:45 PM - edited โ22-06-2020 08:50 PM
@the_great_she_elephant wrote:
@chameleon54 wrote:Suicide by police is not the only problem. A much bigger issue is harassment, discrimination and physical violence by police against those with mental health issues. This is exactly the same sort of treatment indigenous Australians face, but on a much wider scale and affecting more people than police harassment of " black Australians ". This is exactly my point. Police harassment and violence is directed at a number of minorities including " black " people, those with mental illness, the homeless and families of low social economic status.
Its not just " black lives " that matter, all lives matter, and its not just " black people " that are being oppressed by police in Australia it is all minorities. To suggest otherwise is both discriminatory and extremely hypocritical..
All cancers matter. To suggest otherwise is both discriminatory and extremely hypocritical. That doesn't mean it is hypocritcal to dedicate a special month to targetting one partiular kind. And in the same way, while all lives matter, it is not hypocritical to dedicate a special protest to targetting injustices committed against one particuar group.
No, but what IS hypocritical is to ridicule and denigrate those who point out that all lives matter as happened to a protester at one of the marches who indicated this on a sign and which has also continually happened on various online forums including this one.
Anyone who has dared to suggest that " all lives matter " as much as " Black lives matter " has been attacked and verbally vilified for challenging what is clearly a racist, separatist, discriminatory message from the very group that claims to stand against racism and discrimination......ie blatent hypocrites..
on โ22-06-2020 11:41 PM
@4channel wrote:
@the_bob_delusion wrote:
Argue for or against. GoAll lives matter. Yes indeed. But some lives matter less than others to some people.
Do you think all lives matter irrespective of situation or context? Don't you think , some lives matter less than others if they add nothing to humanity but instead threatens the livelihood of others? Are you "some people"?