How to pay for dispute

[moto288]

Hello all,

To keep a long story short. I've sold 2 similar sets of cutleries on ebay to a fraudulent buyer in the US (2 feedbacks, I should have noticed). They filed a non-authentic claim on my items, and the usual story goes, ebay sided with the buyer (despite the items being bought by me personally from the brand store - unfortunately this was years ago and from overseas so I don't have the receipt).

I managed to get ebay to reverse one case so I haven't lost everything. It's been a frustrating and stressful period dealing with ebay on this, and I'm giving up, both happy and sad and I only lost slightly over 1/2 of the money originally.

However, the ebay paying option is convoluted to say the least. Paypal have frozen the funds for the item that I need to refund (so I'm on a negative balance) and ebay is asking me to Pay Now via an ebay page. Obviously my preferred option is to go through Paypal as that means I get the Paypal fees of that transaction back as consolation. However, if I zero out my balance by depositing money into eBay, will eBay know to take money from there?

So the item is $1400, and Paypal withheld $1349 from me (the balance is Paypal fees), so if I can go through Paypal, I pay $51 less.

Could I please ask for some advice how I could go about doing it via Paypal? Saving $51 would help reduce my loss - every little bit counts when you're burned by a scammer.

Thanks so much!

[moto288]

Thanks fixnwear!

Believe it or not, the buyer replied!!! He accused me of selling him counterfeit goods and he finally mentioned that he got it authenticated by a third party!!!?? Giving what he said in his reply the benefit of the doubt, from my point of view and knowledge (given the item is bought PERSONALLY and DIRECTLY from the Paris main boutique), how is it even possible that some third party would have the confidence to make such accusations?! Thus, I've asked the buyer to please send me a copy of that authentication if they genuinely believe it is counterfeit.

The buyer sounds like he genuinely believe they're fake (Or the scammer is just too good? But scammers don't waste time on doing things that won't get them money, especially in a case they already won, there's no point?!) He accused me of lying about not getting him a USPS shipping label because of non-US credit card/Paypal, but I asked him has he checked with USPS that I'm lying before accusing me? To me it sounds like the buyer is just absolutely clueless rather than a criminal. It's too hard to tell.

I'm not posting the reply verbatim here as i'm not sure if that'll breach any rules here. But if it's permitted and everyone wants to see it, I'm happy to.

Thanks for the suggestion to send the photos to Hermes and ask them to help. I will reach out to them again - although last time I did, all they did was point me to the boutique which I've purchased it from - and it is difficult to get in touch with an Hermes boutique in Paris. I will keep everyone in the loop.

I'll think about going to Hermes Sydney. It's a good suggestion but for me it's a bit embarassing to go in and tell some of the familiar staff that I've sold some Hermes stuff online and got scammed! It'll probably taranish my reputation as a customer a little too. 😛 But we'll see if it comes to that.

[fixnwear]

Hi motto,

Rubbish!  About your buyer having an authentication by a third party!

You'd think that the first people they would ask is Hermes themselves - it's not like they are hard to find, a real store or online.

And even then, you'd think that anyone who leaves a glowing f/back initially would give the seller every opportunity to say something - but no - your buyer chose to get his money back from Ebay instead - and keep the item!

Why - because he can!

And there is nothing embarrasing about telling Hermes you sold the set - you bought it, enjoyed it for so many years, it's yours to do with as you please - not really their job to pass the moral judgement - all they have to do is stop the crime occuring, and if they don't  want to do that they are also helping the thief!

It wouldn't sound well if you went to the press and said you have approached Hermes, they refused to help and instead gave you a lecture about not selling something that is yours to sell if you want to that just happened to be made by them. I mean - why do they make stuff? To sell, of course, not to sit there and look at it indefinitely.

Also, they can relate to items being sold - after all, as a store - they do it all the time!

Someone has to stop these horrid actions, might as well be you this time.

Crooks probably know it's a daunting task fighting Ebay and getting them to admit they have made the wrong decision and reverse it.

And by rights, also prosecute the perpetrator for trying to thieve in the first place. This last part would probably never happen - but it should - a great deterent for anyone embarking on a life of crime!

[moto288]

Very well said fixnwear! Thank you!

I had exactly the same thoughts as you. Why didn't he go to Hermes? If there isn't one near his city, then send photos to Hermes, rather than get some random third-party to authenticate it.

He claimed that ebay made him destroy the item, so I've asked him to show me that it's destroyed. If he doesn't provide me with the documentation or photos showing that the item is destroyed, then he's definitely a lying scammer. What's interesting is he didn't even mention the other case that was overturned in my favour - which if he genuinely believe I've sold him counterfeit goods, he should be screaming at me for "defrauding him of $900".

I'll do all I can to get more information or proof from Hermes at my end, but it will be difficult. You guys' continued support here give me the strength to fight on and I'm really grateful for that! Thank you so much.

You are right fixnwear. It's not just a matter of money. It's also a matter of principle and trying to make sure the crooks don't get away with their crimes!

[fixnwear]

motto, don't believe the buyer about having already destroyed the set!

How exactly would you destroy it anyway?

Also, tell him that is not your problem in the slightest, that is something between him and Ebay genius who told him "to destroy it".

And, presumbly taking his word alone that it was done - without requiring a pictorial eveidence that it was done.

And even if such eveidence was supplied - then it's Ebay's fault entirelly for telling people to do it as they have no right anywhere on the planet to destroy other people's property and take their money. No one does.

If any item is proven indisputably to be a fake - only the designer/manufacturer might have the right to tell the buyer to destroy it - but legally, I'm not even sure about that!

They can prosecute the person who sells fake goods, I'm sure - but then they would need the "offending" item as eveidence - as the onus is on them to prove that it is - not yours to prove that it isn't.

I wouldn't believe a single word of what your buyer says - as anyone who is capable of taking someone's money as well as the item is a low life, never to be trusted!

This whole story is all little bit too convenient for the buyer and Ebay, destroy the evidence, nothing to show for it, falsley accuse the seller without having to substantiate anything (Ebay even refusing to do so!) - and they all think that the matter is finished, done & dusted.

At this stage (if it was me), I would not stop, loss of money wouldn't be the driving force  - but hopefully yet another exposure of shonky  and downright illegal practices.

[lyndal1838]

It sounds to me as though your scammer is living in the past.

Before ebay was involved in disputes they were done exclusively through paypal.

If it was a claim of fake goods the buyer had to provide irrefutable proof of the goods being counterfeit....and they were very strict on the proof required and I repeat...very strict.

If the proof was sufficient for paypal (and as often as not it would not pass the test) and the buyer won the dispute paypal would order the destruction of the item and would not refund the money until proof of destruction was provided.

None of this namby pamby give the refund and the buyer keeps the goods....that is criminal.

For argument's sake, even if your item was a fake, the buyer got a very nice set of cutlery.....why on earth should it be destroyed just because "someone" insisted it was not made by the manufacturer it was supposed to have been made by?

[moto288]

I haven't heard anything from the buyer since I've asked him to provide me with the documentation. Every single time throughout the dispute that I ask for any documentation/proof, it falls on deaf ears. However, it's ridiculous that the scammer would even dare (and bother) to leave me a negative comment and write me an email to accuse me of fraud with empty words! It's unbelievable.

The whole system is flawed in the first place. How is ebay entitled to make a judgement that could punish one side financially, yet they don't have a system of fair trial where all evidence is made available for scrutiny? This black-box system is unacceptable and eBay knows well that individual buyers are too small to go against them, and they have less protection in the legal system than the buyers because buyers are protected by consumer laws!

I guess that's also why eBay would instruct buyers to destroy the item, as if they were ever taken to court, they could wipe their hands clean by saying they didn't encourage fraudulent behaviour because the items have to be destroyed, and secondly, as fixnwear said, any evidence that could work against them should they be involved in a court case is destroyed.

[justkidzbiz]

"Someone we know has posted only once ever an expensive item, and as a precaution packed it in front of the JP to confirm that that indeed is the item being sent. One copy went to the buyer, enclosed with the goods, the other to Ebay."

What a great idea for expensive items! And it doesn't cost anything to have a JP sign a document!

[justkidzbiz]

The fact the eBay told him to destroy the item and he did is utter crock. And no doubt the scammer knows this and kept them item rather than destroy it.  I wouldn't be surprised if it appears on a US selling website in the future. That's something else to look out for. I did some searching but couldn't find anything yet! Make sure you keep his name and address and if it does appear online somewhere you can always use this against him.

I would again email ebay (just to keep evidence of the responses) and ring them. 

Who is the 3rd party??? For all we know it could have been the butcher, the baker or candlestick maker.  That in itself is not good enough evidence.  The authenticity needs to come from Hermes themselves and eBay should be accountable for this.  

I would write to eBay and tell them that unless the genuine authentic item is returned, or they return your money you will be seeking legal advice. Given this is an extremely expensive item, a mere "3rd party authenticity" is not acceptable. Along with this, ask why is the authenticity provided by the buyer such a "secret"? Surely you have the right to know how and who authenticated the item as fake when it is indeed genuine.  I would be raising these points in an email (as I mentioned, for your evidence) and b) by phone as well ( and if you can, record the conversation ( advise them you are recording the conversation for personal purposes or you won't be able to use it as evidence).  You need to do the "call back" process when ringing or you just get the idiots that have no idea about their own eBay rules.

[moto288]

Thanks for searching for the items. I've been keeping an eye on them in eBay US too and I will continue to do so.

Yes, I did mention most of those to eBay already, and in multiple emails, and through Facebook messeges as well, especially the following points:

- They don't have the right to dispose of my goods if they don't give me a fair and open "trial", which means all evidence should be made available to both sides for scrutiny. Their response is they don't provide it for privacy reasons (which is **bleep**!) but they will provide it when approached by relevant authorities (and hence I've reported them to ACCC, so hopefully ACCC could help me out there).

- If they refuse to provide me the evidence, should it come to any legal proceeding in the future, they would potentially be named as an accessory to fraud. They didn't seem to care. Probably because they know that individual sellers won't have the resources to fight with them in court.

eBay basically said (in a nutshell) we've decided in the buyer's favour and they don't need to return the items. We won't provide you with the documentation. If you want the item returned or the documentation, you are free to contact the buyer and ask them (as if the scammers would hand it over!). They just wiped their hands clean!

I'm also reluctant to initiate any legal proceeding until I can gather more information from Hermes, because I need to protect myself should it backfire and I don't even have proof of purchase on me vs however dodgy a third-party authentication they have in their hands. The goods is also with the buyer, so unfortunately they have the upper hand.

[justkidzbiz]

Oooooooh eBay are infuriating! That is just bs on their part. 

Keep harrasing them them until they provide the so-called evidence of "unauthentic". Just keep threatening the legal action, and the ACCC, that might just make them change their decision. 

For them to refund a buyer based on what the buyer says, and then not to substaniate the buyer's claims by providing you, the legal  owner of the item, evidence to support the scammer's claims, since the buyer has been refunded, is total theft and accessory to fraud.

ebay do not own the item, and do not have the right to tell the buyer they do not need to return the item, particularly given the item is authentic.

ooooohh makes me so 😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡

will see what else I can find out. Surely with all the online fraud there must be some legal rights available to you.  Will suss out some legal friends and see if they have any advice!