I want to report schilling by an Australian seller. Which fed. authority do I report it to.

[lokes2004]

I have today reported to ebay 2 instances of schilling by an Australian seller but from the history of this seller on ebay it is clear this has been going on for some time and likely involves thousands of dollars. What action will ebay take to remedy this and assuming that it is a fraudulent activity under state or federal law which Australian authority should I report it to?

Knowing that this has happened for so long makes me question ebay's oversight of such activity. This particular seller schill bids to an Auto maximum bid and if outbid sniffs out the new highest maximum bid and bids up to it to max the price.

If the items ends up going to the scill bid it is again put on auction and the process begins again.

[thecatspjs]

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@davewil1964 wrote:

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@thecatspjs wrote:

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@chameleon54 wrote:

I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that shill bidding is illegal in real estate auctions in Australia, but I dont believe this extends to general goods auctions. Even if it did, ebay often claims it is not a registered Australian company and so is not bound by Australian consumer law.

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This is the most irresponsible post.

Any company or business that operates in Australia must operate within Australian Laws - including eBay - and including consumer laws.   Regardless of where their head office or bank accounts are held.

Sheesh.

Gobsmacked.

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Sheesh indeed. Your erroneous information is irresponsible.

eBay pay no tax in Australia, claim all Australian sales are in another country...

If they were an Australian registered company just for instance they would collect and pay GST. HA ha ha.

As far as complying with Australian law, please explain how their MBG complies with Australian law. Given that Australian law deems goods delivered when given to a carrier, when MBG requires proof of delivery.

Just one instance. I'm sure others can cite myriad other examples of eBay's noncomplicance with Australian law.

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THAT is a flaw with our TAXATION system

erroneous response

[thecatspjs]

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@chameleon54 wrote:

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@thecatspjs wrote:

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@chameleon54 wrote:

I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that shill bidding is illegal in real estate auctions in Australia, but I dont believe this extends to general goods auctions. Even if it did, ebay often claims it is not a registered Australian company and so is not bound by Australian consumer law.

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This is the most irresponsible post.

Any company or business that operates in Australia must operate within Australian Laws - including eBay - and including consumer laws.   Regardless of where their head office or bank accounts are held.

Sheesh.

Gobsmacked.

---

This is true cats. Unfortunately you appear not to have thought this through properly. The question I was trying to clarify is where are bids placed on a global auction site like ebay actually happening. ????  Is the bid on a global internet site considered under law to be conducted in Australia, if the company is not operating from Australia. ??? 

As we know ebay do not pay GST to the Australian Government, so it follows that The Australian Government and its agencies dont regard the bidding process or other similar components of the transaction, conducted on the ebay site as occuring in Australia. The actual sale once enacted between an Australian buyer and an Australian seller is considered as occuring in Australia under our laws and subject to Australian tax and consumer law, but it appears the Australian Government does not regard the bits in between ( the conduct of the auction for which ebay recieves commisions ) as occuring in Australia and subject to Australian law including taxation obligations.

 I realise this is a complex and technical issue that some may struggle to understand, but it goes to the crux of the OP,s question. If the Australian Government does not tax the commisssions ebay recieves for the auction component of the sale, when conducted between Australian citizens, then under Ausstralian law, the auction component of the process did not occur in Australia and is not subject to our laws.

I stand by my comments that it seems the Australian Government and its agencies dont regard the ebay auction as taking place in Australia, and it does not appear to be subject to Australian law including taxation law.

Cats, I would welcome your more carefully considered thoughts on this. 

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and what legislation and clause would that be ?

there are a lot of holes in our taxation legislation - and this thread is not about taxation - it is about shilling and associated laws

of course you have realised that ... and trying to blur the points now...

[lyndal1838]

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@lokes2004 wrote:

It's easy to spot when you know what to look for.........................

The scam buyer puts in a max. bid ( usually at the market price) at the very start so that every subsequent bid fails to achieve the higher bid until a subsequent bidder surpasses that of the scam bidder.

I can't say I have ever seen shill bidding work this way.

Most shillers only start bidding when an initial bid has been placed....they don't start the auction.

Please post the title of an auction that has been shilled.

[chameleon54]

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THAT is a flaw with our TAXATION system

erroneous response

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CATS - I do agree with you that it is a flaw with our taxation system. But this is only a very small part of a much bigger problem.

Governments around the world are grappling to come to terms with businesses that are essentially based on the internet or cyberspace. They effectively have no real home or country of origin. Their businesses are not properly taxed anywhere and they dont really fall under any one countries jurisdiction. They register their businesses in a "country of convenience" where they are allowed to operate in an unrestricted manner.

Australia is not alone in trying to come to terms with this problem. It is a global issue.

This is the issue that I was reffering to in the first post that you chose to provide a rather reactionary and dissapointing response to .

The OP can not refer the problem of shill bidding on ebay to any Australian agency as the bidding component of the transaction is deemed by the Australian Government, not to have taken place in Australia or come under the jurisdiction of Australian law.

This may not  seem to us to be "right" or the way we "think things should be". Ebay is no better or worse than many other similar companies. It is just the way all global internet based companies operate.

[chameleon54]

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and what legislation and clause would that be ?

there are a lot of holes in our taxation legislation - and this thread is not about taxation - it is about shilling and associated laws

of course you have realised that ... and trying to blur the points now...

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CATS -----The issue is really very simple. The auction took place on the unregulated global internet. The auction did not take place in Australia so it is not covered by Australian law    There are no clauses that cover it, because the auction did not occur in Australia. If the auction WAS deemed to have occured under Australias legal jurisdiction, trust me the government would be taxing it. They dont, cause they cant, cause it didnt happen in Australia.      

........................      SHEESH

[chameleon54]

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and what legislation and clause would that be ?

there are a lot of holes in our taxation legislation - and this thread is not about taxation - it is about shilling and associated laws

of course you have realised that ... and trying to blur the points now...

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OK.......... I have been taking a look at the legislation that covers this. Most of it relates to sections 53 and 54 of the trade practices act relating to deceptive conduct, including in auctions.

First ...........shill bidding is illegal in the auction of goods in Australia under these acts. 

The problems occur when this legislation is attempted to be applied to the internet. Most of this legislation was written in the 1920,s.  As cats comment highlighted above points out, there are currently too many holes in our current Australian legislation to succesfully apply the laws to internet offences. The law has not kept up with technological advances..

There has been one succesfull legal conviction for shill bidding on ebay, but this was in Britian. Australia has already tried to apply current legislation through criminal convictions for fraud to internet auction sites but has met with very limited success, due to the "holes '' in our current legislation.

It is also worth noting that these sections of the TPA only apply to businesses. A private seller shill bidding his own items would not be covered at all, regardless of where the offence occured. Essentially the law does not cover private people shill bidding and so again due to another hole in our legislation, this practice is not illegal. It does breech ebays rules though.

[clarry100]

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@lokes2004 wrote:

I have today reported to ebay 2 instances of schilling by an Australian seller but from the history of this seller on ebay it is clear this has been going on for some time and likely involves thousands of dollars. What action will ebay take to remedy this and assuming that it is a fraudulent activity under state or federal law which Australian authority should I report it to?

Knowing that this has happened for so long makes me question ebay's oversight of such activity. This particular seller schill bids to an Auto maximum bid and if outbid sniffs out the new highest maximum bid and bids up to it to max the price.

If the items ends up going to the scill bid it is again put on auction and the process begins again.

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Pardon my ignorance here...

I don't know too much about this shill bidding stuff but if their item does sell to their fake bidder isn't this still regarded as a sale by ebay and therefore the seller would be charged the FVF on the sale even tho the fake bidder never pays?

How do they go about recovery of their lost FVF's on all their fake sales without alerting ebay to the fact that they would be doing lots of transaction cancellations and/or Unpaid Item Disputes, way above the averages?

This would add extra evidence to any ebay investigator that shill bidding might be going on.

It would seem that these operators would need to setup lots of fake buying accounts, not just use a single one.

Please educate me here.

[colic2bullsgirlore]

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@chameleon54 wrote:

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@thecatspjs wrote:

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@chameleon54 wrote:

I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that shill bidding is illegal in real estate auctions in Australia, but I dont believe this extends to general goods auctions. Even if it did, ebay often claims it is not a registered Australian company and so is not bound by Australian consumer law.

---

This is the most irresponsible post.

Any company or business that operates in Australia must operate within Australian Laws - including eBay - and including consumer laws.   Regardless of where their head office or bank accounts are held.

Sheesh.

Gobsmacked.

---

This is true cats. Unfortunately you appear not to have thought this through properly. The question I was trying to clarify is where are bids placed on a global auction site like ebay actually happening. ????  Is the bid on a global internet site considered under law to be conducted in Australia, if the company is not operating from Australia. ??? 

As we know ebay do not pay GST to the Australian Government, so it follows that The Australian Government and its agencies dont regard the bidding process or other similar components of the transaction, conducted on the ebay site as occuring in Australia. The actual sale once enacted between an Australian buyer and an Australian seller is considered as occuring in Australia under our laws and subject to Australian tax and consumer law, but it appears the Australian Government does not regard the bits in between ( the conduct of the auction for which ebay recieves commisions ) as occuring in Australia and subject to Australian law including taxation obligations.

 I realise this is a complex and technical issue that some may struggle to understand, but it goes to the crux of the OP,s question. If the Australian Government does not tax the commisssions ebay recieves for the auction component of the sale, when conducted between Australian citizens, then under Ausstralian law, the auction component of the process did not occur in Australia and is not subject to our laws.

I stand by my comments that it seems the Australian Government and its agencies dont regard the ebay auction as taking place in Australia, and it does not appear to be subject to Australian law including taxation law.

Cats, I would welcome your more carefully considered thoughts on this. 

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The question I was trying to clarify is where are bids placed on a global auction site like ebay actually happening. ????  Is the bid on a global internet site considered under law to be conducted in Australia, if the company is not operating from Australia. ??? 

As we know ebay do not pay GST to the Australian Government, so it follows that The Australian Government and its agencies dont regard the bidding process or other similar components of the transaction, conducted on the ebay site as occuring in Australia.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

All you regular posters know the jurisdiction anyways it appears to me that this has turned into a chest bumping thread

ie cats vs the mob

As per your user agreement you acknowledge that the global interenet site does not conduct the "auction" you

acknowledge that the seller does. If the sellers location is within Australia then that states legal system becomes the

jurisdiction within which you can seek remedy

"You will not hold eBay responsible for other users' content, actions or inactions, items they list or their destruction of allegedly fake items. You acknowledge that we are not an auctioneer. Instead, our sites are venues to allow anyone to offer, sell, and buy just about anything, at any time, from anywhere, in a variety of pricing formats and locations, such as Stores, fixed price formats and auction-style formats. We are not involved in the actual transaction between buyers and sellers. We have no control over and do not guarantee the quality, safety or legality of items advertised, the truth or accuracy of users' content or listings, the ability of sellers to sell items, the ability of buyers to pay for items or that a buyer or seller will actually complete a transaction or return an item. "

The litigation trail below confirms where the Australian legal system acknowledges the"trade" took place

Wirraway

NSW Supreme court

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/08/03/1185648121130.html

Consumer affairs VIc

https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/shopping/online-shopping/buying-from-a-private-seller-online

You can also make a claim through a tribunal or court. If the seller is based:

• in Victoria, make a claim for compensation to Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal (VCAT) under the Civil Claims List – visit the VCAT website
• interstate, lodge a claim with the tribunal in the state where the seller lives
• overseas, seek independent legal advice.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/JlLawInfoSci/2008/4.html

[thereallygoodbookshop]

I don't want to start any massive arguments here but I just want you all to know that the criminal law in Australia does cover shill bidding.  It is called fraud.  Every state in Australia has very similar offences covering fraud. The trade practices act is civil law and you are correct that for many scenarios civil law does not cover shill bidding by a private individual.  Criminal law does however. 

The OP is talking about an Australian seller.  The state laws for fraud in whichever state that seller is in apply.  Acorn was set up so that a victim of online fraud can report it and Acorn refer that investigation to the relevant state law enforcement in the state where the offender resides.  It doesn't mean however that just because you report it that a successful prosecution will result for many varying reasons and mainly because the burden of proof for criminal offences is very high.  It is neither here nor there that the conduit for that offence to occur is ebay.  It could be anywhere on the internet.  If the offender is in Australia then Australian law has jurisdiction to deal with that offender for fraud offences.

In Queensland, my state, for example the Queensland Criminal Code S.408C covers Fraud.

[englishrosegardens]

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@lokes2004 wrote:

It's easy to spot when you know what to look for and in this particulat case it has been happening for months,as far back as ebay records of items listed by the seller. The scam buyer puts in a max. bid ( usually at the market price) at the very start so that every subsequent bid fails to achieve the higher bid until a subsequent bidder surpasses that of the scam bidder. Then by using a discover and stop strategy the scam bidder finds the max. bid by gradually working up to it. When the highest bid is matched the scam bidder stops so that the higher bid goes to the other bidder. If they accidentally surpass the higher bid they loose the sale but go on repeat the auction later. When the scam buyer is later seen to be the original seller of the same items and it's repeated 20 or 30 times over a couple of months it sort of stand out.

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The two bits I've highlighted contradict each other.  First of all you're saying the scam bidder puts in a high bid so others are forced to bid up to that price and over it, but then you say the scam bidder starts with a low bid and waits till everyone has bid and then they work up to find out what the highest person's maximum is.  If your first scenario is how they do it and a genuine bidder has already bid higher than the scammer's max there'd be no need to try and discover the genuine bidder's maximum, and there'd be no need for a second scam bidder to work their way up to try and find their maximum as the price is already over market price.  

You can't know what the highest bidder's maximum is until you've gone over it and it's too late once you've done that.  The only way to get out of it is to retract your bid and change it to one that's just under the other person's bid so that they win.  It's when they continually retract bids that you know they're most likely to be shilling.  Note I didn't say you definitely know because there are people who bid and retract constantly because they change their mind all the time.

I've seen a few people accused of shilling when it's just normal bidding and a lot of people just don't understand how things work on ebay.  I'm not saying that's the case in this instance because I haven't seen the listings in question.  It could be that one of their regular buyers likes to suss out the opposition in an effort to win as many auctions as possible - stranger things have happened!

Re shilling laws, I've seen some blatant cases of it at cattle sales and some auctioneers develop a real reputation for it, but nothing is ever done, possibly because it'd be hard to get enough witnesses together to support a charge.