Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

[queenslander-one]

I have today had a Paypal chargeback for an item said not recieved by Ebay/Paypal. Have advised the FOS as Paypal under Ebay's instruction have removed money from my account when I had Proof of Postage. (Photograph of item correctly addressed and Postmarked by my Postmaster. Waiting to hear the outcome.

Copy of my response to Ebay/Paypals removal of funds below.

Hi I sent the buyer a photo of the item posted at the Post office on the 5th Feb to his Paypal Address (Please see my Ebay emails sent) or can supply again to Ebay.

Also under Australian law item 101 of Australia post rules. 101 Articles carried by post to be taken to be Australia Post’s property.

Quote For the purpose of any legal proceeding or action in relation to an article carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the article shall be taken to be, while it is being carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the property of Australia Post.

In Australia, the seller is not legally responsible for delivery, only postage, therefore proof of postage is what is required Also under Paypal rules.

What is proof of shipment? • The date the item was sent; and

•An official acceptance by the shipper, such as a postmark or online status. (Status that shows the item was delivered is also acceptable.) It must also include either: •The recipient’s delivery address, showing at least the state, city and postcode (or international equivalent); or •A receipt from Australia Post showing at least the recipient’s suburb, city or postcode (or international equivalent).

If money is removed by Ebay from my Paypal account over this correctly sent item I WILL be lodging a complaint with the Financial Services Ombudsman. Ebay if it wants to provide an insurance service for so called non delivered items can but not at my expense.

Will see how I fair

[tall_bearded01]

I don’t formulate opinion on the basis of having read it somewhere in a book.  I formulate opinion based on a decade and a half of research and experience arguing real cases, in real courts, before real judges, with my area of specialty being legislation and statutory interpretation.

And no, eBay is not acting unlawfully.  They have a perfect right in the context of their own Guarantee, and for the purposes of their own in house non-judicial dispute resolution process to come to any conclusions they like.  They have a perfect right to do so because, as any such decision is non-judicial (administrative) in nature, it is not legally binding.  So if I’m unhappy with the outcome I have a right to have it reviewed by an independent judicially body, who are capable of making binding decision.

However, internal dispute resolution processes such as employed by eBay are subject to a non-binding industry code of conduct, and where it is established that a business is stretching the self-serving nature of the outcomes a little bit too far, the  regulator has the right to step in and bring them back into line.  This is exactly what happened with PayPal.  There was a time when, for the purposes of Buyer Protection the only proof of delivery they would accept was proof it was actually received.  Today proof of postage is proof of delivery but this change in the level of proof wasn’t voluntary.  The same will happen to the eBay Money Back Guarantee.  It is only a matter of time.  

Finally as you have introduced the question of proof, when it comes to recovery proceeding, as it is eBay who assets a right to recover and as the general rule is “he who asserts must prove”, should the matter fall to be judicially decided, it does not fall to me prove it was posted. Instead It falls to eBay to prove it wasn’t.  But prudence dictates that, to asset in the orderly conduct of proceeding I should tend some evidence that I did post it, and that evidence will usually take the form of an affidavit to that effect.  Now as an affidavit is a worn document, the justical officer must accept is as proof of a fact, unless the eBay can prove otherwise.  

Simply put, if the item is sent by letter then to prove it was posted all I have to do is swear a statement to that effect.

[joethenuts]

at the end of the day if a buyer does not get there goods  he can sign an afidavid also and he is entitiled to feedback the seller that he did not get goods ,this does not help the seller  when a posible new customer not buying because of the last buyers comment  and my friend mr beard this is how it is.

[thecatspjs]

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@tall_bearded01 wrote:

Depends purely on who has placed the item at risk.

If the listing expressly says “Note Pickup Allowed” then in the vast majority of cases, the goods are at the seller’s risk, until the buyer actually receive them.  That is because, the risk inherent in delivery by carrier was brought about by a decision made – a contractual obligation imposed on the buyer by the seller.

One the other hand if the seller doesn’t stipulate “No Pickup Allowed”, then as the buyer has the right to choose whether they are going to pick it up, arrange for someone else to pick it up for them, or arrange for the seller to have it delivered to them by carrier, as these are the choices the buyer has made in connection with goods they own, it is they who are at risk once the goods have been handed to the carrier.

The point if you can’t afford to lose it, and if you are in any doubt as to who is at risk whilst the goods are in transit, insure it.

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If the option for pick up available was not selected in a listing as one of the available methods for a buyer to get their goods  - a buyer does not have the right to demand to pick up an item.

If only a post or freight is advertised - the buyer has been provided with a choice to buy under those conditions. 

If a buyer seeks different collection arrangements they should seek to negotiate these prior to purchase, any agreements made between buyer and seller then form part of the contract. 

[queenslander-one]

TB one I  would like to Thank You as due to Postings you made on other disputes I was therefore Encouraged to go ahead with this dispute and also lodge the complaint with the FOS. All seems to have worked though still awaiting my funds return. Amazing how they remove money from my Paypal account straight away but takes 5 to 10 working days for it to be returned. If and when returned to my account will advise the FOS until then have left the dispute open to cover myself.

Once again Thanks and I hope more ripped Off sellers do the same.

[joethenuts]

I am so happy you will get your money back , too bad for the buyer  when you would not refund his money when he did not get his parcel oh well luck for him ebay came to hie help and refunded all his money 

maybe more buyers will come back to ebay knowing that if they dont get there goods ebay will refund them from the buyers account

ps i hope if you make a dispute against ebay you can still use there site in the future  good luck

[thecatspjs]

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@queenslander-one wrote:

TB one I  would like to Thank You as due to Postings you made on other disputes I was therefore Encouraged to go ahead with this dispute and also lodge the complaint with the FOS. All seems to have worked though still awaiting my funds return. Amazing how they remove money from my Paypal account straight away but takes 5 to 10 working days for it to be returned. If and when returned to my account will advise the FOS until then have left the dispute open to cover myself.

Once again Thanks and I hope more ripped Off sellers do the same.

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Its a shame you give all the credit to one poster.

There are have many many more posters, some signficantly more active (without the blinding errors of advice that "TB" includes) who have advised on these boards to contact the FSO in situations such as yours.

[queenslander-one]

Right for the sake of Harmony. Thank you to all Posters with advice given on how to take on Ebay and assist with these matters.

[thecatspjs]

Thank you !!  I appreciate your acknowledgement of the other posters.

[raffta1]

dam,I had a hole lot typed out and lost it. Anyway, can you provide the exact law and legislation this is under eg: Aus Consumer law, item xxx paragraph xxx that kind of thing.

I am no good at reading or finding this stuff. But I do know that law and legislation override any policy.

I am wanting to add this kind of information to my listings so the buyers are fully aware. And that I have the info hand to place back on ebay if needed. I cant afford to keep being ripped of and put of pocket. I am only a seller who sells stuff from around my home, not a business.

[raffta1]

What TB has said is basicly what Auspost said to me. I purchased a load and go card from them online and added a $50 balance to it. Its coming up with being delivered, I have not received it. I asked them about it and was told, not their problem as I selected to have it posted and its been deemed delivered.