Should eBay "encourage" sellers to offer insured post option for goods over a certain value?

[thecatspjs]

eBay have really pushed the express post option through TRS plus, however choosing to get it faster, does not reduce the risk of a parcel being lost or damaged in transit.

Given paypals policy changes and their backing off from any form of buyer protection if a seller can demonstrate proof of post and addressee no matter the value of goods, and given that under legislation in Australia it is the buyer to "carry the risk"  for goods being damaged in transit or lost, shouldn't eBay "encourage" or even mandate that sellers must offer an insured post option for goods over a certain value, say $100 ? 

Whilst as a seller I insure items over a certain value, regardless of post price paid, I still think that eBay should operate to promote not only consumers rights, but consumers responsibilities as well, and when they purchase goods they need to be aware that they will not be covered by buyer protection if the seller provides proof of post and addresse.

If a seller can provide this information - the buyer will be out of pocket, unless the seller takes the hit themselves, which is also unfair.  An option of insured post, at least gives puts the decision making back with the one taking the risk - the buyer.

[nevillesdaughter]

Just from my own perspective - I post about 1,000 parcel annually, with an average cost of about $60 each (selling price + postage).

In the last 9 years, I have only had 4 items that buyers claim didn't arrive - and in 2 of those cases I'm sure I was being scammed. No items at all have gone missing since I started using eParcels with signature on delivery - I had 1 signed for fraudulently, AP gave me a copy, I refunded the lady and Paypal refunded me. In the other 4 cases, I was able to replace 2 of the items, and refunded the other 2 myself - the entire cost to me would have been about $100 at most.

A couple of years ago, on the advice of my business lawyer, I took out business insurance because of all the problems that come from operating a business (no matter how small) from my home. For example - if a buyer comes to collect a purchase and trips over a skateboard - my householders' insurance doesn't cover them because they were here doing business. If I don't have business insurance, they would sue me personally and I could lose everything I have and more. There are similar scenarios relating to theft (did the thieves break in to steal stock or were they just housebreakers?), and so on....

As icing on the cake - when I first starting looking around for insurance, the first company I contacted was the one that insures 5 houses, contents, 3 cars and my family's health for me. They do business insurance, but didn't have a product to suit me, directed me to a broker, and then advised me that if I didn't have a policy in place to cover the business within 7 days, they would no longer insure my family home because the risk was too great.

Of course I found a company through the broker and this costs me over $2000 per year. This policy doesn't cover items lost or damaged in the post, but that is available as long as everything is tracked and signature on delivery - which I already do. The extra cost would be quite high depending on how many parcels and their value are involved. Since I started using signature on delivery (3 years) I have only had 1 parcel fraudulently signed for. I refunded the lady in full, and Paypal refunded me under their provisions. No insurance necessary. Needless to say, I have decided to continue to carry this risk myself.

I appreciate the benefits of offering insurance but it has been my experience that the ones who decline the extras due to the cost always seem to be the ones who come out of the blocks screaming abuse and threats when something goes wrong. And th be a simple thing to use and apply to a sale, it would just about have to be an eBay/Paypal product (underwritten obviously) and I feel that it's just going to look like a cash grab. And no prizes for guessing that it'll be the sellers who'll bear the brunt of the blame, after all, we are already to blame for postage costs and delivery times!

I know that there are much bigger sellers transporting more expensive and fragile items than me, but speaking personally, I would much rather just keep covering the risk myself - so far it has been virtually nothing. I also suspect that adding another (possible) expense and associated bureaucracy to a transaction may cost us in sales.

I was just tooling around on a couple of on-line selling sites (Iconic and Oz Sales) and in both cases, their delivery terms are signature on delivery, unless the buyer opts for an authority to leave, and an item is deemed as delivered when there is a signature or the carrier says it was under an authority to leave. No mention is made anywhere regarding insurance. They mention items DOA, but only to say each case on its merits.

As an aside, Ozsales include an option to order an item under a provision that it will be shipped to the buyer from the overseas manufacturer. Whoever imports a product is deemed the manufacturer for the purpose of warranties etc, which is why when something you buy from K Mart fails, you return it to them, they refund or replace, then deal with the insurers or manufacturer themselves. Ozsales state that as soon as a buyer places an order that is going to be imported, the buyer will be the official importer of record, and therefore responsible for any duties/taxes and warranty problems - particularly important at present in the light of current discussions re same. Some of eBay's drop-shippers should probably look closely at this.

I'm sorry this is so long winded, and I appreciate that other sellers have vastly different situations than mine, but I honestly believe that offering insurance via eBay would unnecessarily complicate transactions for no real benefit. and possibly even result in a loss of sales.

Marina.

[thecatspjs]

Totally see your perspective, and agree with much of it ND.

I am concerned though, as IMO the disretionary buyer protection available for missing or damaged parcels now seems to be restricted to buyers who purchase low cost items sent by ordinary letter post, or purchases from new, occasional or smaller volume sellers not up to speed on the need to get and retain proof of addressee and post for seller protection.

For higher priced goods say over a threshold of say $100 - I can't see how it would hurt eBays trading reputation to encourage sellers that don't already, to add an insured post service as an option, just as they may offer express as an option.   

As a seller if your standard post service for higher priced items is one with insurance via AP or courier company anyway, it wouldn't make any difference to your operations. 

[nevillesdaughter]

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@thecatspjs wrote:

Totally see your perspective, and agree with much of it ND.

I am concerned though, as IMO the disretionary buyer protection available for missing or damaged parcels now seems to be restricted to buyers who purchase low cost items sent by ordinary letter post, or purchases from new, occasional or smaller volume sellers not up to speed on the need to get and retain proof of addressee and post for seller protection.

For higher priced goods say over a threshold of say $100 - I can't see how it would hurt eBays trading reputation to encourage sellers that don't already, to add an insured post service as an option, just as they may offer express as an option.   

As a seller if your standard post service for higher priced items is one with insurance via AP or courier company anyway, it wouldn't make any difference to your operations. 

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One other concern I have (again - relevant to the way I operate) is the added paperwork and handling. Currently, I enter my parcels into the Aus Post eParcel on-line site, print and affix my labels, process the despatch on line, print off a manifest and then drop the manifest and parcels through a secret door at the PO (they even give me a supply of the big liner bags that go in the red post boxes so I look like Santa). The secret entrance is so all the people inside waiting to buy a stamp don't beat me up if I stand in line! After I've gone, the staff then check my parcels off against the manifest, scan them into the system and off they go...

Presumably, a form would need to be completed for insured items detailing value, addressee details etc, thus requiring my parcels to at least be sorted into 2 lots and possibly then they would need to be entered as insured through the PO's system and the insurance paid for separately - there is currently no facility to add insurance on eParcel's on-line site. In the ski season (I sell ski gear), this could see me hanging around the PO for considerably longer than the 2 minutes I spend there now! It also puts me back in danger of being beaten up in line for clogging the system.

What would be great was if something like "numbered insurance tokens" say in $5.00 increments could be pre-purchased and allotted to a transaction as required to save the extra processing after a sale. I don't even know if such a thing exists - I just made it up.....In my case, the only other solution for me would be to  renegotate my Aust Post contract to include insurance for all my parcels, therefore forcing it on everyone.

Again, I'm only seeing it in relation to my own situation and it seems, administratively speaking, rather a lot of effort for what is a very small issue in my business.

Now I'm going to have a glass of wine or three, and try not to think about insurance anymore...

Night, night,

Marina.

[thecatspjs]

I understand your perspective, and I that you are prepared to cover the loss of the goods if buyers did not get their ski suits due to AP incompetence even though you would have seller protection.  But given you get signature on delivery as a part of the e-parcel service, it is less likely to happen anyway (not that it doesn't at all)

But many other sellers won't or can't afford to cover such losses.

[nevillesdaughter]

Just a quick point about fragile items. Aust Post say pointedly that they offer no "Fragile" handling service, and that any item packed for postage should be able to withstand a 20kg item (the largest weight they carry) being dropped on to it from about waist height.

All parcels are thrown around, into and out of trucks,  planes etc and I have heard many a tale (especially on these boards) af AP refusing claims for damage based on "it obviously wasn't packed well enough". All the "Fragile" stickers in the world won't help against the 20kg rule, although it's nice to think a caring delivery person would do his/her best!

Even with insurance, a claim will still be refused if they say it was your fault for not packing it properly.

Cheers,

Marina.

[thecatspjs]

Forgive me if it seems I am terolling your post Marina, but just wanted to add a comment after another heated thread on this topic as I recently rang AP to clarify their position on fragile items. 

Consistent with their advice on their facebook book, AP do not refuse extra cover claims as a matter of course if items are packaged properly and in accordance with their advice, including fragile items.

[nevillesdaughter]

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@thecatspjs wrote:

Forgive me if it seems I am terolling your post Marina, but just wanted to add a comment after another heated thread on this topic as I recently rang AP to clarify their position on fragile items. 

Consistent with their advice on their facebook book, AP do not refuse extra cover claims as a matter of course if items are packaged properly and in accordance with their advice, including fragile items.

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No forgiveness necessary - a forum is meant to be a place for exchanging stories and experiences. We can all only speak from our own position, and I certainly don't want to bag Aust Post. They are a dynamic organisation struggling to adapt to a rapidly changing business world, and in the main, are doing a great job. And I didn't mean to imply that a claim for a damaged, insured item would automatically be refused for poor packing - just that marking something "fragile"  and insuring it won't potect it absolutely.  The 20 kg drop rule is just something handy to remember when packing a parcel - part of the responsibility for an item's safe transport lies with the customer. I've heard people say "It doesn't matter, it's insured".

Marina.