Two Paypal chargebacks by two separate buyers in one week!?

[kitty-kat-kollection]

I'm annoyed.

First I get a buyer who purchased a face cream in mid November, paid the next day, I posted it, they received it and left positive feedback the next week, and then last week after hearing nothing all this time, they claimed a chargeback case saying they did not authorise the transaction.

Hello? Was your account compromised / hijacked the day you bought the item, the day you paid for it or when you left positive feedback a week later? And did you not notice "someone" had bought this item for almost three months?

Then yesterday I get another buyer I sold an Xbox digital game download code to back in early December, also claiming through paypal that the transaction was not authorised.

Hmmmmm. They purchased the game download code, I sent them an ebay message thanking them and also confirming that I would send it to them when I got home from dinner. They then sent me a message in not very good English asking for the code to be emailed to them, which I did but I also sent it in a message within ebay.

So now almost three months later again, this person is saying he didn't buy it? Someone else bought it, did they? Funny that the person who bought it did not speak English well, had the same email address when asking me to send the code as the person lodging the chargeback, who happens to live in Europe, and the chargeback is in Euros. Huh?

Even IF any of these people really DID have their ebay accounts compromised, HOW IS THIS MY RESPONSIBILITY?!

Am I their parent!? UGH!!!!!!!!

[kitty-kat-kollection]

Thank you!!! That makes me feel much better to hear all that! It also makes more sense. I just feel lately like I'm playing tennis against those machines that spit out the balls too fast, with these issues! lol.

You are always so generous with your help and support, digital*ghost, thank you again!

[countessalmirena]

You must satisfy PayPal according to its requirements. PayPal will take no notice of "since this [your argument], wouldn't that mean [your conclusion]?" It won't even register as a hiccup in the throat of PayPal's Seller Protection.

Don't gather information that isn't explicitly asked for by PayPal. Look only at what is written in that first link to which I referred to (and from which I quoted in my first reply to you on this thread): Resolving disputes, claims and chargebacks.

If you have the eBay message from the buyer, provide that to PayPal. Also provide your reply sent via eBay message, and also the reply that you sent by email. Provide the email in which you sent the code to the buyer. ALSO provide the source code of that email. (You can phone PayPal and ask if there's an email address to which you can forward the email so that its source code can be examined, or you can copy-paste the source code. If you forward the email, do not add anything. No explanation in the top. No change of subject. Nothing. Leave the email exactly as is and forward to the given email address.)

Get on the phone again to PayPal in plenty of time before a decision is made and ask if that's sufficient. Don't try to persuade the PayPal rep by saying that the email address is still the same as that which the buyer has now. You are very very unlikely to achieve anything at all by that; in itself that means nothing. You know what information is required. That's what you have to provide.

Spoiler

If, after looking at that link and what I've quoted, you are then worried that you don't have the level of proof in either or both of these cases, you may want to try phoning the buyers concerned. (I don't know if you have their phone numbers, so this is hypothetical.) If you do this, have your script ready. You must sound calm, collected, knowledgeable, efficient, and completely unrattled. I'm not even sure if I should be suggesting this, because it is FATALLY easy to do this wrongly.

But... were I to do this, I would have all the relevant policies (eBay, PayPal, Code of Banking Practice as monitored by the Code Compliance Monitoring Committee) to hand, as well as information provided by ACORN. I would select which sections are relevant to the situation and prepare those, complete with section and paragraph references. I would decide what I want to achieve, structure a conversation guideline to achieve that, and have situational result responses for any possible outcome. If I needed to practise, I would do so. I wouldn't pick up the phone until I was as thoroughly prepared as a Shakespearean actress taking on the role of Portia.

No... you'd probably have a much better stab at this by sending a letter to the buyer requiring signature on delivery. (And only if you can't satisfy PayPal, because the PayPal route is far more straightforward as long as you have what is required.) I'm not going to go into detaills here because your focus at this point should be on giving PayPal what they ask for - exactly what they ask for.

[kitty-kat-kollection]

Yes, you're right. The first case, for the face cream, was just found in the buyer's favour AND I got charged that $15 fee for not immediately refunding the buyer. WHY WOULD I THOUGH!?

What I do not understand is why proof of shipping the item is even required in this instance, since that is not in question or dispute.

If the buyer didn't receive the item, wouldn't they have contacted me via ebay or lodged an item not received dispute?

They are not saying they didn't receive it. They're saying they didn't authorise it.

[digital*ghost]

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@kitty-kat-kollection wrote:


What I do not understand is why proof of shipping the item is even required in this instance, since that is not in question or dispute.

---

The anonymity PayPal gives buyers is a drawback for sellers, because it means risk is that much more difficult to assess, therefore the seller protection they provide is something that they voluntarily offer and works to mitigate the increased risk. The protection against chargebacks that PayPal offer is something that is very uncommon, it's a drawcard for sellers, just like the protection of card details is a drawcard for buyers. 

Delivery to the buyer is always irrelevant to PayPal, even if the buyer raises an item not received dispute, they just want proof that you followed procedure, and that you sent the purchase before you can be eligible for protection, because why would they find in your favour, or provide you with seller protection, if you can't show that you're eligible or didn't even send the order - you would be suffering no loss if you didn't post had to refund the payment in that case.  

[kitty-kat-kollection]

That is very true. I still just wish paypal would consider logic though. This buyer did not lodge an item not received case through either ebay or paypal, and if I had provided proof of shipping, that still doesn't change the fact they apparently didn't authorise the transaction. Ugh.

I saw in their feedback that they have scammed someone else too, buying multiple items and then claiming chargebacks.

[digital*ghost]

From Paypal's perspective, it is logical. They're basically saying "we subjected this payment to fraud assessment, cleared it and said it's ok to send to the buyer. Turns out it wasn't so if you sent it, we'll take on the liability as long as our policies and other guidelines / directions were met".

[countessalmirena]

kitty-kat-kollection, when dealing with either eBay or PayPal, you need to follow the letter of what their policies say... not the spirit of the policies or what you think the policies imply or what the policies should say or what seems clearly to be common sense. To misquote: "Those who don't sell by the letter of the policies die by the letter of the policies."

1. If you're selling an item where the cost is higher than you are willing to risk in an eBay claim, PayPal claim or chargeback claim, send the item in accordance with the Seller Protection policies. That is, only send to the address stated in checkout, via a tracked method, and ensure that you retain all such proofs for - let's say a year. (Remember that online status of "delivered" only lasts for a while! Of course, AP staff may be able to provide the information for longer periods.)
2. If you're selling an item where the cost doesn't justify the extra cost of sending via a tracked method, try to get other proofs that you sent to the address stated in checkout. Note that eBay requires proof that the item was delivered, not just posted. PayPal, in contrast, will accept proof of shipment (i.e., proof that you posted to the buyer's address stated in checkout). If a buyer states item hasn't arrived and opens an eBay MBG claim, unless you have proof of delivery you are almost certainly going to lose, no matter what other evidence you have. (Positive feedback doesn't constitute proof of delivery.)
   
   
3. Many sellers self-insure for such inevitable cases by increasing the postage amount on all their items by just enough to cover their annual losses due to lost post or buyers claiming something hasn't arrived or buyers engaging in some form of fraud. The increase should not be huge; just calculate the total amount of loss due to such things in one year, do the usual calculations, and there you have it.
   
   
4. You say that the buyer's feedback indicates that they've done this before. Can you "follow" this buyer? (Go to their feedback profile page, see where it says ♡ Save - and click onto that.) It helps to make some things clear. Please post when you've done this.
   
   
5. For future transactions, checking feedback post-sale can help you make last-minute decisions. eBay offers a few reasons for cancelling a sale; it must be frustrating for sellers not to see one of those options be "Buyer's behaviour indicates a pattern of risk"! However, perhaps the feedback indicates that something MUST be wrong with the buyer's address since so many items seem to go missing or so many transactions appear to have resulted in a problem (e.g., chargeback) which may lead a thoughtful seller to consider that there is enough reason to suppose that the cardholder's address may not match the buyer's address.
   
   
6. Another possibility is that if you see post-sale that the buyer has a history of missing items or chargebacks, you decide to send by a tracked method for your own protection (funding the additional cost from your own funds).
   
   
7. Bear in mind that there is no minimum amount or value that some people will steal. This may dictate your choice of pre-emptive behaviour in case of what in your judgement may be a problem transaction.
   
   
8. If you sell digital goods in future, check that your method of sending the digital goods or making the digital goods available to the buyer meet the PayPal requirements for Seller Protection. (eBay's MBG doesn't cover digitally delivered goods, so you only need to consider PayPal.) Check with PayPal to be sure, but I would consider that if you send such goods by email, you should enable Delivery Status Notification. (I'm still not sure how you actually got the buyer's email address, as eBay and PayPal are removing email address details from any part of the transaction as part of eBay's paranoia about off-eBay sales.)
   
   
9. Remember that most buyers will be honest. There will be a proportion who are dishonest and you should have some firm policies in place for how you deal with various situations that may arise as a result of some people's dishonesty.
   
   
10. Never let an eBay dispute get to the point of eBay stepping in, unless you have the proof that eBay requires, in the form that eBay requires.
    
    
11. If PayPal informs you about a buyer raising a chargeback, consider refunding voluntarily unless you have the level of proof in the form of proof required by PayPal. If you let the option to voluntarily refund time out, and you don't supply PayPal with the proof they require as per their policy, you'll be hit with the additional charge.
    
    
12. Bottom line: to sell successfully on eBay, you must either send via tracked postage method or you must self-insure to cover the occasional "losses". Consider enabling tracked postage method only for all items over a certain dollar amount. Post-sale you can always choose to pay the extra yourself for tracked postage method if something smells fishy.
13. Additional: remember that in spite of all your precautions, you will probably experience a few problem transactions. That is why having your own guidelines/policies written up can be of great help. They give you a sense of being grounded rather than free-floating and reacting to the immediate situation. You will know whether a claim is worth fighting or whether your calculations show it's best to cut your losses on that particular transaction.

[*tippy*toes*]

Re number 8, you can get a buyers email address by going into PayPal and clicking refund. On the next page it shows the email address where they funds will be sent if you continue.

Also, very occasionally, PayPal forget to block out the buyers email address in the Payment Received email. I had 3 in 2 days recently where the email address was visible.

[springyzone]

I feel very sorry for you as obviously you did send off the items to the buyer & they were happy with them.

As for the chargeback. I can't say 100% what happened there but I am wondering if it could possibly be like an unfortunate situation my sister & i found ourselves in a few years back.

Just say a person has a credit card. They can ask the bank for another card on the same account, in the name of a secondary person.

This happens a lot eg husbands & wives both having a card on the one account.

But here's the thing. If one is the secondary card holder, they are not legally liable for the bills. It is the primary account holder who is. The primary account holder, by asking for the second card, is basically acting like a guarantor, as I understand it.

This is fine most of the time but where you get a break up or lack of communication, you can run into troubles. Back when my brother was ill, we found there was a secondary account holder on one of his cards and we put an upper limit on the credit amount, thinking that was reasonable enough, only to cop a blast from the secondary card holder. Not before she had run up many thousands of dollars in bills though. We just paid up from the estate but I am guessing some primary account holders might initiate a chargeback.

So maybe your buyer was a secondary account holder but not the actual owner of that account.

[kitty-kat-kollection]

Thank you so much for these replies. This has definitely been a learning curve for me!

Oh, in answer to point 8 above, after the buyer paid for the digital download and I sent him an ebay message thanking him, he responded by asking me to send the code to his email address (he provided it) or by ebay message, and I sent it to both. He gave me his email address via ebay message.

You know what puzzles me, if someone really did somehow hijack someone's credit card or ebay account...anything they ordered would simply go to the actual address of the real buyer, wouldn't it? So what's the point!? lol