Who is responsible for items damaged in transit?

hi, item i sold has arrived in pieces. It was bubbe wrapped, boxed and further bubble wrap. it looks as if someone deliberatel chucked it along the way. I suggested buyer contact aus post to deal with it as its covered in the postage...theyve put in a refund request via ebay and want me to pay? am i liable for the damage and do i have to refund when i state i dont?

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Who is responsible for items damaged in transit?

Let's bury our heads in the sand and ignore the reality of the fact that sometimes things do get dropped - and never forget that ALL PROBLEMS ARE ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT.
Message 11 of 22
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Who is responsible for items damaged in transit?


@shoppingbag* wrote:

Yes and the sky may fall tomorrow too. Let's all buy steel cabinets to send our items in, in case one of those millions of 22 Kg parcels may just happen to fall on our packet of bone china.


And where did I say that there are millions of 22 kg parcels sent through our postal system?

 

Quite the opposite in fact....they are in the minority but it is always a possibility that there will be one in the same cage as your packet of bone china so you need to pack accordingly.

Message 12 of 22
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Who is responsible for items damaged in transit?

@shoppingbag*,

 

Of course you're correct in saying that there aren't a plethora of 22kg parcels ready to attack parcels containing fragile items.

 

BUT... what has been said here about Australia Post's position on adequate packaging really appears to be correct.

 

Australia Post have some things to say about fragile or tricky items. They also state that items which were not adequately packaged aren't covered for compensation. They points out that โThere should be enough cushioning around the item to make sure it isn't damaged, and also to make sure it can't cause injury to our staff, or damage our equipment or other mail.โž And of course they state that they โdon't actually offer a 'Fragile' serviceโž, and explain that โwriting on your item won't protect it when it's in a mail bag or being processed through sorting equipment.โž

 

In Australia Post's Terms & Conditions, they say:

 

โTerms & Conditions
71.1   No amount which is permitted to be paid under this part shall be payable for loss or damage relating to the carriage of articles:

           71.1.3  which, in the reasonable opinion of Australia Post, were not or could not be adequately or appropriately packaged for carriage;โž

 
Australia post cover themselves by saying (in their Extra Cover Service Terms and Conditions๐Ÿ˜ž
 
โ6.2   Australia Post shall not be liable for any amount claimed under the Service:
           6.2.1    where, in the reasonable opinion of Australia Post, damage to or loss of an article arises or indirectly from the failure of the sender to adequately wrap or package the article;โž
 
 
โD10.6.1 โ€“ General considerations
It is important that customers pack and make up postal articles in such a
way that fragile contents do not suffer damage by the handling stresses
and pressures to which the article will be inevitably subject to during postal
carriage.

Notices such as FRAGILE or THIS WAY UP are of no use once the article is in a
mail bag or at any time that it is not being handled as an individual article.

D10.6.2 โ€“ Glass, crockery, cameras, electronic equipment
Senders should pack glass, crockery, cameras and electronic equipment
such as video recorders, radios or computers in rigid outer boxes of metal,
wood, fibreboard, strong corrugated cardboard or strong plastic. Wrap each
item separately. To prevent movement of the items within the box and to
absorb pressure and knocks, use plenty of cushioning material, such as
wood wool, cotton wool, felt pads, corrugated cardboard shredded paper,
tissue paper or non-flammable cellulose materials.

D10.6.3 โ€“ Pictures, maps, charts, calendars
Protect pictures or similar items such as maps, charts or calendars with
strong material such as layers of corrugated cardboard. If practicable, roll
the picture round a wooden rod and enclose it in a strong mailing tube.
For framed pictures, protect both the front and back with strong rigid
material such as boards or strong plastic that are larger than the frame.
Place cushioning material between the frame, the recessed surface of the
picture and the protecting boards. Remove glass from framed pictures to
avoid damage to the picture if the glass breaks.
 
[...]
 
D10.9 โ€“ Heavy items
Pack heavy items in rigid containers securely tied with string or twine. Use
sufficient cushioning material to prevent the contents moving within the
container. If the item, such as a computer, has fragile components, refer to
D10.6 โ€“ Fragile items.
Wrap nuts, bolts and small machine parts with heavy-grade material.โž
 
So... to sum up, items need to be well cushioned, double-boxed if necessary, with plenty of bubble-wrap and wood wool and so on, with sufficient use of strong rigid boxes (sometimes even in metal or wood!), and so that the packaging will protect against "damage by the handling stresses and pressures to which the article will be inevitably subject to during postal carriage." While I can't find any mention of parcels needing to be able to withstand 22 kg or 20 kg, etc., it makes sense to think about the maximum stresses and pressures at least including the maximum weight of other parcels. So... it's more from inference than directly stated, at least that I can see on AP's website.
 
(Remember that AP's T&Cs make clear mention that AP gets to decide what is adequate packaging and what is not.) Underestimating the need for cushioning and protection and separate packaging of individual items would just make it easy for AP to stamp "DENIED" on the claim form!
Message 13 of 22
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Who is responsible for items damaged in transit?

Countess, there is nothing inferred about the maximum weights....the 20/22kgs are well and truly documented on the AP website.

 

As for the mention of waist height....that is just a general "measurement".   At the StarTrack base at Greenacre the conveyor belt is higher than my waist but exactly level with my OH's waist.   It is dependent on the height of the person standing beside it.

 

The cages are the same height so if a parcel comes off the conveyor belt it has the potential to fall from that height to the bottom of the cage.  If the cage  is half full the item will only fall half the distance.

Message 14 of 22
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Who is responsible for items damaged in transit?

I trust your insider information and experience in this. (The maximum weights are definitely not in question - it's just that I couldn't find anything in the "adequate packaging" information that specifically said, "You should pack in such a way that your parcel and contents can withstand a 22kg parcel dropping onto it." But anyone reading through all the "adquate packaging" and "fragile items" information would have to conclude, surely, that withstanding those weights is nothing but sheer common sense, I think.)

 

I would hate to find myself in the position of having to prove to AP that my packaging had been adequate in any case of damage. I overpack and overprotect, if anything! A friend asked me to obtain a particular item - a VERY large pyrex flass thing to be used as a terrarium - and post it to him in another state. I was horribly worried about how best to protect this item. It was too big for any AP box, so I set to with packing peanuts and scrunched-up paper and bubble wrap inside (but not too much because I needed to avoid internal pressure, of course), loads of bubble wrap carefully applied to the shape of the thing, then its being placed inside a box and padded with more bubble wrap wherever it looked as though it might move (even a bit), and then inside another box, also protected between the two boxes with additional bubble wrap.

 

It got there safely.

 

 

I think I posted on these boards not TOO long ago about the smashed-up Emile Henry crown loaf baking dish...? I can't fathom how on earth the repackers from the forwarding company I use could possibly have imagined that their "protection" would have sufficed. It was ridiculously inadequate. I was compensated in full, fortunately.... I've re-ordered from the company itself and hopefully I will receive my newest EH items soon.

Message 15 of 22
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Who is responsible for items damaged in transit?

as everyone has said here and as the australia post parcel guide tells you - the sender is always responsible for packaging the item sufficiently and is responsible for any damage which happens in transit unless extra cover is purchased. as you're probably aware, they don't have a fragile service or recognise any labelling of a package as such.

 

even then, i'm not sure if anyone has vast experience with dealing with australia post in result to damage claims where extra cover was purchased; but it can be incredibly difficult to prove to australia post that the item was properly packaged or for them to accept it and actually pay out.

 

their terms and conditions for extra cover are worded in a way that i'd hate to ever have to claim for items which are obviously breakable. you can read the terms and conditions at https://auspost.com.au/content/dam/auspost_corp/media/documents/Schedule-01-0416.pdf 

 

points 6.2.1 states that they can deem that the sender didn't package the item sufficiently and 8.1.3 and 8.1.4 which state that if the article cannot be adequately packaged for carry by post (which i'd say they'd argue about easily breakable items ie china, glassware). 8.1.4 states that if they cannot after reasonable enquiries ascertain that they were at fault for the damage, the claim can be refused. 

 

the reason i'm so skeptical is not because of claims i've made with australia post (i've never made one), but i have with DHL express which overall, is a pretty decent and efficient logistics company. the sender had photos of their packaging prior to sending and i had photos of it on arrival, with the outer box and contents smashed to pieces due to the item clearly being dropped repeatedly. long-winded story - but 6 months later, despite paying costly insurance, they deemed the packaging insufficient and denied the claim. 

 

i know that as others have said; it's no use to you now for this transaction - but in future, i'd always photograph every item you send and the way it's packaged (i began doing this after a couple of fictitious claims from buyers) and now; i've relied on it in the case of paypal disputes and even just presenting it to the complaining buyer can sometimes stop them in their tracks. for me, it's definitely been worth the effort and has proven invaluable. 

Message 16 of 22
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Who is responsible for items damaged in transit?

I sent a hefty item a few weeks back (a vintage two-way radio, weighing several kilos). Packed it well - sturdy cardboard box, lots of bubble-wrap, etc.

 

It still arrived with the microphone in literally dozens of pieces - as though someone had taken a hammer to it.

 

Here's what the microphone looked like:

 

s-l1600 (6).jpg

 

And here it is after Australia Post's tender care...

 

s-l1600 (4).jpg

 

I had no choice but to refund the buyer. Item returned, replacement microphone fitted, and relisted within half an hour. But I'm still out time and money...

Message 17 of 22
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Who is responsible for items damaged in transit?

Sorry but to me that looks like either your buyer or someone else decided to throw it on the hard ground on purpose lol.

That damage wasn't caused by the delivery,to me that's not possible.

Good bubble wrapping is when you can kick the **bleep** out of it and it bounces like a foot ball lol.

Delicate things need to be wrapped in hard cardboard like a book cover and then bubble wrapped 10 times.

Message 18 of 22
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Who is responsible for items damaged in transit?

My first thought was someone did actually take a hammer to it, but given the size and weight of the rest of the unit (the radio part that the microphone is sitting on) it's a definite possibility the radio simply crushed the microphone. It depends on how much protection the microphone had against the rest of the contents of the box, though.

Message 19 of 22
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Who is responsible for items damaged in transit?

Haha yes you're correct that's why I said that delicate items need to be wrapped 10x over with bubble wrap.

And surely you'd need to really consider the possiblity that it would have been turned upside down at some stage and the micro phone getting crushed.

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