About to leave negative feedback - is it deserved.

[ekrabappel]

I recently purchased a used book as an accepted offer (From $28 to $17.50). The book I received was softcover in Ok condition yet the listing was for hard cover.  I contacted the seller and offered to keep the book if she would offer a $7.50 discount as I did not consider the book worth the price I paid since it was soft cover (This was a used first edition and I can purchase a new 2012 second edition from the UK for $25 including postage).  I recieved no response so I filed a paypal claim stating I was after a $7.50 refund. She sent a curt (no thank you, please etc) message escalating the dipute to a claim but I had to return the book. She originally sent the book in an unpadded recycled envelope (with labels over the previous names and addresses) with $1.20 postage.  So I  sent it back the same way (except I used a new envelope).  After dispatching it at the PO I went to fill in the Paypal response only to discover they need a tracking number. As I did not have one and Paypal wouldn't let me proceed without one I entered a random number.  Since then I recieved a message from paypal saying case closed as no item delivered and refund refused.  I have recieved no response from seller either who I am sure has received the item.  I am fuming. I have sent a message asking the seller if she has received the item and am waiting for a reply.  Having had a closer look at the feedback the lady has a record of not accurately describing goods and I'm sure she knows that people will be reluctant to spend $4-5 dollars to return a $17 item because of a mistake that she made. Negative feedback on the cooker and almost ready to serve. Is my willingness to neg deserved and have other readers had this problem with Paypal wanting tracking on cheap item returns?  Thanx

[*crikey*mate*]

Well, yes the seller did force the return of the book by escalating the case

So they have the book and have not refunded the money, that is dishonest.  Maybe not enough to make a police report, but not right on any level.  There is no excuse.  but legally it is a theft, just as it would be if you find a purse and do not hand it in with all its contents. 

And by the way, as the OP has sent the book back 2 weeks ago, I really cannot see why are some people advocating to wait bit longer? 

According to my Lexis Nexis 2011 Legal Dictionary,

Fraud: An intentional dishonest act or omission done with the purpose of deceiving.

Theft: see steal

Steal: 1) take another person's property illegally. 2) take property etc without right or permission, especially in secret.

From the Oxford Dictionary

Force: - meh - too much to type, if anyone wants to, look it up. But the seller willingly returned the book. It was her choice to do so.

[phorum_junkie*]

Both buyer and seller have acted incorrectly.

The seller should have admitted their mistake and issued the partial refund. When they didn't and made the buyer return the book which they should have done by registered post then I would agree the seller would deserve a neg however with absolutely no proof that the seller has received the book back and the buyer having lied to Paypal by using an invalid number I reckon no feedback should be left, the seller's follow up could make the buyer look very bad!

The buyer should have read the very clear Paypal instructions that say the item must be sent back with tracking so should have sent as a registered letter.

Everyone is saying the seller has the book back so they are committing a capital crime by not telling Paypal that and refunding but once the buyer put an invalid number in Paypal would automatically close the dispute in the seller's favour, nobody except the seller knows if they have the book back or not. A credit card chargeback is a silly suggestion too, card companies require proof of return just like Paypal and if the buyer initiates an unsuccessful chargeback they will face a $15 fee.

[wishuponastarcelebrationsandgifts]

I can appreciate your frustration.

We can assume the seller received the book back, but cannot be sure of that. Items do ocassionally go missing in the mail. In my experience it is extremely rare.

Perhaps contact the seller via ebay messages and reiterate that as you posted the book back a fortnight ago as a lerge letter you presume they have received it by now so you would like to know when they will be processing the refund to your Paypal account. Remind them that you had to make up a tracking number for the Paypal claim in order to process the return.

The seller will either:

• not respond at all (suggesting they have the book and will not refund your money)


• claim they haven't received the book back and will refund upon its return (may or may not be true)


• advise they have received the book back and will refund your payment in full

I don't know the reason as to why they listed it is a hardcover; it could have been an honest mistake. What does matter is how they deal with their mistake.

Irrespective of what transpired with regards to the incorrect tracking number and how the seller felt about your request for a partial refund, it is the seller's error that has caused you to be dissatisfied with the transaction and their responsibility to rectify the situation.

I gather they failed to advise you that you needed to return the book via a method that included tracking, or offer to send you a prepaid satchel in which to return it.

It is reasonable for a buyer to expect clear instructions on acceptable methods of return from the seller.

Leave the feedback that you believe is an honest reflection of how you feel.

[lyndal1838]

I gather they failed to advise you that you needed to return the book via a method that included tracking, or offer to send you a prepaid satchel in which to return it.

It is reasonable for a buyer to expect clear instructions on acceptable methods of return from the seller.

The seller's instructions are meaningless once a dispute has been opened.  The buyer needs to follow the instructions given by paypal, which very clearly state that the item must be returned by an on line trackable method.

No matter what the seller's shortcomings in this case, they are NOT guilty of failing to give the OP clear instructions for return.  The OP has already admitted to not reading the paypal email.

[davewil1964]

I don't know the reason as to why they listed it is a hardcover; it could have been an honest mistake.

It could be a lazy seller just plugging in the ISBN and using eBay's stock photo and publishing data. Which is very often erroneous.

Although most who do that have a little disclaimer hidden in their T&Cs stating that the picture is for illustrative purposes only and what you get might be a different edition and/or binding.

[joz*garage]

I recently purchased a used book as an accepted offer (From $28 to $17.50). The book I received was softcover in Ok condition yet the listing was for hard cover.  I contacted the seller and offered to keep the book if she would offer a $7.50 discount as I did not consider the book worth the price I paid since it was soft cover (This was a used first edition and I can purchase a new 2012 second edition from the UK for $25 including postage).

May i ask what the title of the book was?

If the author intends a long run, being a soft cover magazine wouldnt devalue it as most first editions are sort after and valued. OK, its not an oldie but people still collect them, only because its a first edition (generally theryre less first issues published with most publications which makes them harder to find) .

If you can get a new second edition from the UK for $25 delivered, that is dearer than what you paid for a first edition. Being new doesnt make the second edition worth more, a first edition will always be worth more.. even if read.

you got a discount too! perhaps the seller overlooked the hardcover in the description which might have been a follow on from another listing and was an honest mistake.

im thinking it doesnt matter if a first edition book is a hard or soft cover, personally i wouldve kept the book. and just asked the seller that you thought it would be a hard cover and waited to see if they'd offer a partial refund.

got no advice for ya, just sayin' 

[wishuponastarcelebrationsandgifts]

The seller's instructions are meaningless once a dispute has been opened.  The buyer needs to follow the instructions given by paypal, which very clearly state that the item must be returned by an on line trackable method.

No matter what the seller's shortcomings in this case, they are NOT guilty of failing to give the OP clear instructions for return.  The OP has already admitted to not reading the paypal email.

The issue is the buyer acted based on what the seller had told them to do after escalating the dispute to a claim ie. send the book back. The buyer then realised after checking the Paypal claim that it had to be sent back via trackable means. Given it was sent to the buyer without tracking, it is not an unreasonable assumption that it could be posted back in the same manner (without tracking).

It is always prudent to provide that little bit of extra information to the buyer instead of assuming they have read the details. It is apparent that many buyers do not even read item descriptions.

[lyndal1838]

As soon as a dispute is escalated to a claim (by either party) the buyer is obliged to follow the paypal rules, which would be to return the item by an on line trackable method for a refund.

That is standard, unless the seller does not want the item returned.

The seller is under no obligation to tell the buyer how to return it once the buyer has turned to paypal.

[wishuponastarcelebrationsandgifts]

As soon as a dispute is escalated to a claim (by either party) the buyer is obliged to follow the paypal rules, which would be to return the item by an on line trackable method for a refund.

That is standard, unless the seller does not want the item returned.

The seller is under no obligation to tell the buyer how to return it once the buyer has turned to paypal.

I appreciate what you are saying and agree the seller is not obligated to explain this to the buyer. I guess we all have our own interpretation of what we consider to be great customer service. It comes down to a matter of personal opinion.

In this particular instance I noted that the buyer informed the seller that they sent the book back without tracking but the seller hasn't responded. The buyer was not seeking to return the book, they sought a partial refund. If they were sekking to return the book then you would expect them to review the requirements regarding returns. The seller requested they return the book. The buyer also mentioned that the seller has a "track record" of not describing things accurately. I can only assume that if this is the case that the seller has some experience with items being returned to them and I would also hazard a guess that many buyers may not be aware that they have to send items back with tracking to satisfy Paypal. Many probably don't even turn to Paypal as they try to resolve the situation amicably with the seller or have paid by another means such as bank deposit.

The question that begs to be asked; did the seller elect not to tell the buyer that it had to be sent back with tracking in the hope that the buyer would not know this and return the item without tracking? I don't understand why the seller has not responded to the buyer. You would at least expect a response to the effect that it hasn't come back in the mail hence the Paypal claim was closed in their favour.

I am looking at the scenario that has been painted in its entirety.

[lyndal1838]

There is certainly no doubt that the seller is severely lacking in customer service, ethics, morals and every other way....BUT once a dispute is lodged with paypal it is their rules that must be followed in order to get a refund.  As soon as the dispute was escalated the buyer should have been following their instructions, not the seller's instructions.