Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

[wendy9456]

Firstly Merry Christmas Everyone.

I just have a question as I have noticed on the boards recently buyers mention Item Not Recieved disputes.There has been talk re claims being lodged via eBay and not Paypal. Confused. What is the difference and what is the best way to go??

Cheers and TIA

Wendy

[fixnwear]

elusive,

in a nut shell:

If seller posts with click & send, tracking number will appear in the listing for buyer and everyone else to look at and track.

Sellers have fullfilled their obligation - they have posted it - and there is no other possible way for seller to ensure even more that the buyer will actually receive it - as the seller is not taking it over personally, he has to relly on AP to do their job.

If buyer claims in spite of than non receipt - they will loose the dispute. There is absolutely no possible way they can win.

If seller is informed that the parcel has never arrived - he can undertake to find out from AP - BUT HE DOESN"T OWE THE BUYER ANYTHING. Except pulling all the stops to help with PO investigation - keep on them until they find out what has happened to it.

That is why PP as well as Ebay can't just take the money from the seller, not his fault a third party has lost it.

That would be a big falacy if the seller was to be responsible for that part and lost money every time. That fault can't be pinned faire and square on the seller every time!

Nothing stopping buyers either from paying for some form of insurance - but they seldom want to do it - they count too much on how they are going to be "protected" somehow if their parcel is never seen again.

Then, when they lose the case they go and leave negs for sellers - some of them before they even find out what happened to the parcel. Disgraceful that is even possible.

[tall_bearded01]

There are two kinds of claims processes.

The first is the process that the service provider (Aust Post) want you to use for the purposes of determining whether, they the provider will, without actually admitting liability, resolve the issue by way of a discretionary payment.  The other process is what happens if you are not happy with the outcome. 

That is, if Aust Post using their in house process makes a decision you don’t  like, you are entitled to lodge a complaint with the Omnbudam, and if you lodge a complaint with same, then what say it requires to justify the claim is no longer relevant. 

That is, whereas, when it comes to lost items the Aunt Post policy say it’s the seller who lodges the claim, the ombudsman requires that only the person who actually owned the goods lost, that is the person entitled to any compensation, is the one who must lodge the complaint.

[tall_bearded01]

As to what provides actual proof –

The core evidence is an affidavit or stat Dec (that is a sworn statement) that the item was sent to the buyers address.  As this statement is sworn it must be accepted on face value, unless there is good cause to doubt the credibility of the person who made it.  Rules of Evidence 101.

So where do things like receipts, diary entries/postal ledgers, tracking number’s fit in.  They are the documents provided in support of the evidence.  That they are not the evidence, they are the documents provided which attest to the accuracy of the evidence as contained in sworn statement.

So this is how I usually respond to say an item not receive claim.  I provide a stat Dec that the item was posted ,giving details as when it as posted etc, coupled with copies of an documents I have in support - postal ledger where the postal transaction was recorded, copies the receipt, details of the tracking number etc.

Then if the claim was filed with PayPal if they find for the buyer, simply lodge a dispute with the FOS and wait for PayPal to cave, and if the claim was lodged with eBay file a complaint with the ACCC and the SA Office of Consumer affairs and wait for eBay to fold.

It is really that simple.

[cq_tech]

So in other words, the fact that I photograph all of my untrackable large letters once the stamps have been officially cancelled by the PO is sufficient evidence, in conjunction with a statutory declaration, to successfully defend an INR claim against Paypal or eBay in the event that the letter is lost in transit while in the care and possession of the carrier, correct?

[tall_bearded01]

Yes.

The stat dec is the evidence the item was posted.  The photographs are the documents which support the evidence you gave in the Stat Dec.  And the two combined is more than enough to prove, on the balance of probabilities that the item has been posted.

Then if PayPal/eBay refuse accept that proof, a favourable resolution is only a quick complaint to the relevant regulatory body away, And if they receive enough of them, then this is evidence that the problem is systemic, and if the regulator is satisfied it is systemic then, it is at that point they will step in, with the do it or else "suggestion" that things need to change.

You see, what corporations like eBay and PayPal rely on is that people will always whine but very few will actually take the time to actually do something about it  However, there come a time when people are pushed too far, with the 21 day freeze being a case in point, and when that happens, that's when people decide enough is enough and will actual do something about it.

[cq_tech]

Thanks t_b, I had a feeling that was the case but I very much appreciate your having verified exactly where I stand. In the absence of scanned tracking, large letters have always presented a major issue with proving delivery so it's nice to know that I'm definitely covered if one of my letters goes missing in transit.

[harley_babes_hoard]

I am in the same boat, lots of large letters. I have a book with the buyers name and address then it Is date stamped by the PO staff once I hand them over for lodgement. In the past this I have had tested a paypal claim twice. Once it was enough evidence and buyers claim was dismissed the other case paypal said it wasn't enough to prove item had been posted so lost that claim. So what exactly is needed to have a stat dec filed?

[chameleon54]

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@elusiveeditions wrote:

Ok, so does this all mean:

1- EB & PP essentially have the same stance, that proof of post/delivery into Australia Post's system or courier system covers the seller- no recourse to buyer.

This has been my experience as a seller so far (but haven't tested new rules) but it does seem awkward, since any AP investigation has to be launched by the sender/seller, the buyer is powerless here.

2- What exactly constitutes proof of post? Eg, these things?

a) Tracking number with no receipt as such (just the tracking number sticker from a satchel, even when you hand these over the counter you don't get any receipt, it's just scanned)- marked on AP site as delivered

b) Tracking number with no receipt as above- marked on AP site as rec'd in system but not delivered

c) No tracking number but receipt from PO with postcode of delivery address

d) Anything else?

AND- this is all ONLY if buyer pays by PP. If buyer pays by BD or other means, all of the above is moot anyway. Is that right?

There doesn't seem to be any real consensus on much of this... it does my head in and I haven't even had to deal with any problems yet. Many of you here have my deep sympathies.

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First, many thanks to the tall bearded one, for again sharing his invaluable experience.

elusiveeditions - When you lodge a pre paid 500gm., 3 kg. 5 kg. parcel or tracked envelope, you can request an AP reciept on lodgement, which proves you handed it over the counter to them. I recieve one each time I mail and it forces the staff to scan the item in at the time. Its no big deal, I pile them on the counter with bar codes all facing the same way. They grab them and scan and put in bins in one easy movement. It only takes a few seconds. When finished the pile they hit a button and you have your lodgement reciept showing each parcel with tracking number. ( paper copy proof of lodgement.)

[elusiveeditions]

Ah ok, thanks chameloen, I didn't know you could get an AP receipt for handing over satchels if you ask.

Luckily my almost INR resolved itself- satchel is now safely in buyer's hands, but I'm saving this thread for future ref, lots of excellent advice here. Large letters are my other prob. good advice on that too.

I previously sold 2ndhand books online for years (abe, alibris, biblioz etc) and this nonsense just didn't happen. I didn't realise how lucky we were back then. Also AP accounts were cheaper, it was so much easier (sigh).

You'd think ebay could make this clearer. Oh that's right, there's money in keeping everyone confused and frightened. Silly me!

[wendy9456 · Accepted solution]

Thanks for all the responses. After the first 2 seemed to get off the track a bit. Still confused but think I will just go with my gut feeling if I ever have to worry about it.

Thanks again to everyone and hope you all had a lovely Christmas and let's hope we all have a wonderful 2015 free of eBay woes and defects and scam buyers.

Cheers

Wendy