Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

[wendy9456]

Firstly Merry Christmas Everyone.

I just have a question as I have noticed on the boards recently buyers mention Item Not Recieved disputes.There has been talk re claims being lodged via eBay and not Paypal. Confused. What is the difference and what is the best way to go??

Cheers and TIA

Wendy

[curraone]

First step - an ordinary email to the seller, choosing "other" as the subject.    Most sellers have refund/replace policies in place, and they may want to confirm the address etc.    Some sellers ask for a formal stat/dec that they can take to the PO to complete a missing parcel investigation.  

If no satisfatory response from the seller, then I would go with a paypal dispute,  it seems the simplest method.

[phorum_junkie*]

If it works as it should and it appears there is no great hope of that happening yet then you are better off with an ebay dispute especially if the seller has provided tracking. For Paypal proof of posting is enough for the seller to win but with ebay proof of delivery is needed.

[cq_tech]

What's the difference? In Australia, once the item has been handed to the carrier is it legally deemed to have been delivered and now belongs to the buyer so on that basis it shouldn't make any difference whether the claim is handled by eBay or Paypal as the end result should be exactly the same.

[fixnwear]

If it works as it should and it appears there is no great hope of that happening yet then you are better off with an ebay dispute especially if the seller has provided tracking. For Paypal proof of posting is enough for the seller to win but with ebay proof of delivery is needed.

phorum junkie - that is wrong - about Ebay needing the proof of delivery

They are exactly the same as PP, seller needs to prove they have posted it, with tracking number.

That is all.

I had recently experienced the same with two unrelated items, and both of them were knocked back as it showed it was posted.

They told me to get the seller to chase it up with the PO.

Which is only right, when you think of it - as the sellers did nothing wrong, it would be terrible if the money was taken of them for no good reason!

They have entrusted it to the third party - they can't be possibly held responsible for it - PO obviously is.

OP, you'll bomb out with the claims to either of them, Ebay or PP - if seller has tracking showing they've posted it.

Your best bet is to them to inquire with the PO - and they'll find what happened to it eventually.

[elusiveeditions]

Ok, so does this all mean:

1- EB & PP essentially have the same stance, that proof of post/delivery into Australia Post's system or courier system covers the seller- no recourse to buyer.

This has been my experience as a seller so far (but haven't tested new rules) but it does seem awkward, since any AP investigation has to be launched by the sender/seller, the buyer is powerless here.

2- What exactly constitutes proof of post? Eg, these things?

a) Tracking number with no receipt as such (just the tracking number sticker from a satchel, even when you hand these over the counter you don't get any receipt, it's just scanned)- marked on AP site as delivered

b) Tracking number with no receipt as above- marked on AP site as rec'd in system but not delivered

c) No tracking number but receipt from PO with postcode of delivery address

d) Anything else?

AND- this is all ONLY if buyer pays by PP. If buyer pays by BD or other means, all of the above is moot anyway. Is that right?

There doesn't seem to be any real consensus on much of this... it does my head in and I haven't even had to deal with any problems yet. Many of you here have my deep sympathies.

[tall_bearded01]

To make sense of it all, all one needs is a rudimentary understanding as to the fundamental legal principals governing distance sales, especially where goods are sold on description.

When it comes to delivery, as it is the buyer who owns the goods, they have an express right under the legislation to not only stipulate the kind of carrier to be used, but also the kind of service to be used, and whether they will go to the added expense of insuring it.

When it comes to delivery by carrier, the seller is the agent of the buyer, and as such, they must do everything reasonably required or instructed to do by the buyer to ensure safe delivery.  So if the buyer says they want it double boxed, the seller is required to double box it.  If the buyer says they want a fragile service used then a fragile service must be used.  Needless to say, as they are the one giving the instructions, they foot the bill, including providing the seller with reasonable reimbursement for time spent performing these tasks on behalf of the buyer 

Furthermore, if the buyer issues no instructions, but instead leaves it wholly to the seller to decide the kind of carrier and service to be used, then once the seller has made those arrangements, if the buyer pays for them, then that payment has the same legal effect as if the buyer had told the seller to use that service.  So if you buy a china plate and have it delivered by being placed in a post pack  bubble wrap, then this has the same legal effect as if buyer had said to the seller, ‘don’t box it.  Just put it in a post pack and sent it’.  

If the seller discharges their obligations as referred to above, then, all risk associated with any loss or damage to the goods passes from the seller to the buyer.  This is referred to as deemed delivery, which in effect means handing the goods the carrier has the same legal effect as if the goods had been handed to the buyer.

Finally, the buyer is said to have received the goods once the carrier has fulfilled their obligations under the delivery contract.  For instance, where a buyer pays for standard post, then the item is said to have been received when it was safe dropped, and if it goes missing after it was safe-dropped then it when missing after it was received.  Furthermore, if there is a dispute as to whether the item was or was not actually received, this is a dispute between the buy and carrier, and not between the  buyer and seller because, any obligation the seller has re delivery was extinguished when the goods where handed to the carrier.

Now all you need to do is read the words in as contained in The Guarantee in the context of actual meaning as provided above, and you will get an idea as to what your rights and responsibilities under the Guarantee are. 

[afantiques]

Looks like Australian buyers get a pretty rough deal. In America and the UK, the seller must produce evidence of delivery to win a not received claim.

'Post and forget' has long been outlawed.

[elusiveeditions]

TallBeardedOne, thanks for detailing all of that. Your posts are most informative.

I have several questions but I'll only trouble you with one. In regards to:

"Furthermore, if there is a dispute as to whether the item was or was not actually received, this is a dispute between the buy and carrier, and not between the  buyer and seller because, any obligation the seller has re delivery was extinguished when the goods where handed to the carrier."

a) If an Item not rec'd case is in law a dispute b/w the buyer and the carrier (whether AP or courier) it seems difficult to enforce, since AP at least (unsure on couriers) require the sender of the item to initiate any recovery attempt or invesitgation with the carrier. In my experince the buyer cannot launch any enquiry with the carrier, so how are they to dispute anything at all?

b) I'm still not clear on what constitutes actual extinguishment of seller obligation in terms of actual proof of 'handed to carrier'. There is much grey here, and experinces seem to differ.

I may be about to test this myself, so I will read further 🙂

[tall_bearded01]

Depends on your definition of rough.

The legislation here is based on the two basic principles -  they who own something and can’t afford to lose it should insure it; coupled with, the person who makes a decision should bear any adverse consequences arising from it.

Here the legislation provides that the buyer owns the goods NLT immediately they pay for them.

Here the legislation provides the place of delivery to be the place where the goods are located at the time of sale, and the buyer has every right to go to that place and collect them.

Here the legislation provides, if the buyer is not able to collect them themselves, they can arrange for someone else to go to the place that they located (be it a family member, friend, or contractor/carrier) to collect it on their behalf.

Here the legislation provides, if the buyer can’t, or don’t want to collect, or don’t want to arrange someone else to collect it, they can ask the seller to make the necessary arrangement to have it delivered by carrier.  That is the decision to use a carrier to deliver is made by the buyer, not the seller.

Here the legislation provides that the if the seller agrees to the buyers request, it is the buyer who  decides the kind of carrier to be used and the level of service they want – are prepared to pay for.

Here the legislation provides that where the buyer requests the goods be delivered by carrier, and the seller agrees to make the necessary arrangement, as long as they comply with all reasonable request made by the buyer then any legal obligations they had in connection with those goods is extinguished once they have handed the goods to the carrier.

Now, any of the above can be implied.

That is if the sellers terms of sale do not EXPRESSLY say no pick up, his means the buyer is free to go where the item is located and pick it up; or arrange someone else to collect them it for them.   Furthermore if the listing doesn’t expressly exclude pick up and provides a delivery by carrier option, this is an implied agreement by the seller that they will arrange for delivery by carrier.  Now at this point, the buyer can choose to pay for the carrier option as provided by the seller or they can instruct the seller to use another.  That is once the seller opened the door re delivery by carrier they can’t shut it…In act implications of implied instructions or consent are limitless but I think enough t=has been provided to drive home the point.

And here’s the important bit.   The legislation allows for a contract out of provision.  That is, it actually allows for the seller to change the place of delivery from the place where item is located at the time of sale to some other place - such as the buyers residence – by stipulating in the listing Pick-up is not allowed.  But the legislation also provides that, if a seller is stupid enough to do that, then deemed delivery doesn’t apply; that is the seller remains liable for any loss or damage to the goods until the time they are actually in the possession of the buyer.

Like I said, the intent of the legislation is to make the person who makes the decision responsible for any adverse consequences arising out of it.