Paypal Dispute lost because Seller has proof of postage (sort of)

[gs2833]

Ok i lost a dispute on pay pal because the seller give paypal proof of postage

the value of the item wasn't a concern (under $40) for me, just the outcome of it.

paypal swiftly close my dispute because the seller using aus-post eparcel and provide tracking number which baffle me.

in my case the item went to a different suburb to where i live and according to paypal policy for proof of postage

https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/security/sell-shippingrecommendations

"For Australia Post eParcel customers, a copy of the consignment information page which shows buyer's address and the online tracking code that can be used to confirm delivery"

The keyword is AND but this never provided by the seller - paypal just swiftly close the dispute - and favor the seller because he give the tracking code.... way to undermine your own policy

if you guys use eparcel before you will know that it has a tracking BUT it only show the suburb the item come from , transit and deliver to.

nowhere it show where the address item posted to and aus post wont give it out to you (privacy etc etc)

The seller can write the wrong address on it and still win paypal dispute

The seller can scam me(post to a relative near my area) and still win the dispute

I keep emailing paypal with my logic but never receive a respond

Regards

[i-once-was-bump]

Thank you, it is quite obvious I don't use either because I thought they were one and the same.

So swapping address stickers would be obvious with an e-parcel but maybe possible to get away with if using click and send but still very unlikely. 

[tonalidesigns]

If there was a mix-up with labels the buyer would surely have got something?????

Interesting though - seems like "seller protection" comes at the expense of "buyer protection" - first time I have ever seen a post like this.

[thecatspjs]

gs2833 if you did not receive this parcel and the tracking shows it as being delivered to you - then you need to open an Australian Post investigation, you can do this by ringing them on 13 7678 -

As it was an e-parcel and it is showing as delivered you may receive some compensation for the loss.Usually e-parcels require a signature on delivery, so if someone has signed for your parcel and it was not you then it has been accepted by someone else fraudulently - or safe dropped when it shouldn't have been.  If it was sent to the wrong address as you claim, then the investigation should pick this up.

[lyndal1838]

Ok, I have just been through this.  A parcel was posted to me via Parcel Post with tracking as told to me by the seller and confirmed by AP...no idea what this means (e-parcel or C & C??)

It was tracked to the local delivery depot, then on board with the driver, then Delivered.

But I did not get it!!

The seller escalated the dispute within hours of me opening it and paypal messaged me to say that the seller had provided a Tracking number and what did I have to say about it.  I rang paypal as there was no way to reply in the dispute.  I pointed out that the tracking only showed it as having been Delivered somewhere, not to me specifically.

Paypal then gave the seller 3 days to provide further information.  A the end of 4 days I phoned again and the seller had not responded so the dispute was found in my favour and the money back in my paypal account within minutes.

You need to ring paypal and point out that the tracking does not show where it was delivered. And paypal does tell you what information/paperwork he seller has lodged with them....I was given the tracking number by paypal.

[tall_bearded]

GS 2833, you should consider yourself extremely lucky that this lesson as to the limitations of PayPal Buyer Protection has co0me at such a low price.

For purposes for Australian Consumer Protection Legislation it’s the Buyer who is at risk whilst the item is in transit, and PayPal Buyer protection simply mirrors that FACT.

That is the PayPal Buyer Protection policy clearly states, their Buyer Protection is limited to the provision of a RECOVERY SERVICE and if the seller can prove it was POSTED, then no recovery right exists; and the minimum proof that PayPal will accept is a dated receipt that shows something was sent to SUBURB to which the buyer told the sender to send the item.

Therefore for the purposes of the policy it matter not if it was not received.  It matters not because the seller doesn’t have to prove receipt.  Instead all they have to prove is that it was posted and this applies irrespective of the value of the goods purchased.  That is, if you buy a $10 item and it isn’t received but the seller can prove it was posted it’s the buyer who is $10 out of pocket.  If you buy a $20,000 (the limit of PayPal buyer protection) and it is not received but seller can prove it was posted again it’s the buyer who is $20,000 out of pocket.

When it comes to PayPal Buyer protection, what most buyers simply don’t understand (or refuse to accept ) is that PayPal Buyer Protection does nothing more than mirror the rights conferred by the respective consumer protection legislation, and for the purposes of that legislation. DELIVERY has a specific legal meaning and that meaning doesn’t mean RECEIPT.   That is because, for the purposes of the legislation, handing the parcel to the carrier has exactly the same legal effect as if the parcel has been handed to the buyer. 

Therefore the word delivery/delivered as it appears in the PayPal policy - unless the policy defines it as something else, which it doesn’t - then  for the purposes of the policy it has the same meaning as given to it by the legislation on which the PayPal  policy is based.  That is,  when it comes to eParcel the seller must first prove postage was paid (copy of the consignment information page) and then prove it was DELIVERED to Aust Post (online tracking code that can be used to confirm delivery) and once those two requisites have been satisfied, PayPal must find no right to recover exists.

Sort of put the whole PayPal Protects the buyer, postal insurance (Registered Post ) protects the seller in wholly we light

Oh and Lyndal.  Thanks for the additional information re your seller, which simply proves PayPal (once again) got it wrong.  But of course as you refuse to identify the seller, this simply means you benefit from that mistake at the expense of the seller.

[phorum_junkie*]

Paypal policy is that if the seller can prove they have posted the item then they have seller protection and the buyer is not automatically entitled to a refund. That does not mean that you cannot get your money back, just that you will have to spend some time dealing with it. Any refund will be paid by Paypal as a discretionary payment.

Call Paypal, tell them you disagree with a decision they have made and want them to look at it again.

Tell them that the seller may have provided proof of the item being sent but you have not received it and therefore you are entitled to a refund. If they still refuse tell them you are prepared to provide a Stat Dec confirming nothing has been received.

If they still refuse ask to speak to a supervisor, stay calm and polite but tell them if they will not accept a Stat Dec and issue a refund you will be taking it further with the financial services.

Take down a note of the name and employee number of each person you speak to, especially important if they do say they will refund you.

[tall_bearded]

Tell me PJ how does someone force someone to give them gift.

That is a discretionary payment is by definition an ex gratia payment, and any such payment along with the provision of gratuitous services (which is what PayPal buyer protection really is) does not give rise to a contract between buyer and PayPal.

That is, in its policy PayPal doesn’t promise to make a discretionary payment. Instead It simply says, if we cant reverse the payment,  we may,  at our absolute discretion pay you out of our funds. 

I think this falls far short of creating a legal obligation pay as inferred in your post where you say, as “you have not received it and therefore you are entitled to a refund”

[janeababe]

I didnt think Stat Decs were worth the paper they were written on these days??

I certainly wouldnt trust one!

[phorum_junkie*]

So TB as far as you are concerned if a seller can prove they have posted something then the buyer should just walk away and say too bad, so sad, my item hasn't been delivered,  the seller has my money and I can't get it back!

Paypal are not unreasonable if approached in the correct way and most certainly will make a discretionary payment and will accept a Stat Dec.

And then of course if the buyer has been sensible and funded their payment with a credit card they can do a chargeback which, if the seller has seller protection, means Paypal having to cover the cost, fine if the seller is honest, if not they may be getting money for nothing if they haven't got real proof of delivery to an actual address.

[lyndal1838]

[quote mid="605020120"

Oh and Lyndal.  Thanks for the additional information re your seller, which simply proves PayPal (once again) got it wrong.  But of course as you refuse to identify the seller, this simply means you benefit from that mistake at the expense of the seller.

[/quote]

I am not sure what additional information you think I have given but as far as I am aware there is nothing here that was not given elsewhere, albeit spread over several posts.

If I were to identify the seller here I would be slapped silly for identifying them on the boards....and anyway I was not asking for any help. I was solely telling the OPs of my experiences with a paypal claim.

I have no idea whether my seller lost any money...all I know is that I received a refund for a parcel that never arrived.  It went to my paypal account not my credit card, which to me indicates that it was a paypal funded refund and not a refund of the payment to the seller which was Debit card funded.