Are you a sinner?

[the_bob_delusion]

If so, do you deserve to go to hell?

Discuss.

[the_great_she_elephant]

My lips are sealed! 

Spoiler

But doesn't it  make a nice change to have something to talk about rather than arge about.

[the_great_she_elephant]

Well, i've ordered the book. And, since our discussion, I now have something else to thank you for also - I have rediscovered my love of the old English ballads. I remembered that two of them - The Bitter Withy and the Cherry Tree Carol - are supposed to be based on stories from the Apocryphal Gospels, so I went hunting through my library to find and read them and am now rereading my whole ballad collection

[lyhargr_0]

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@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

Well, i've ordered the book. And, since our discussion, I now have something else to thank you for also - I have rediscovered my love of the old English ballads. I remembered that two of them - The Bitter Withy and the Cherry Tree Carol - are supposed to be based on stories from the Apocryphal Gospels, so I went hunting through my library to find and read them and am now rereading my whole ballad collection

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Pleased you were able to get a copy elephant. Great how one thing can lead to another, I haven't heard of either of those ballads, so will see if I can find them, they sound interesting.  

Re the Gospels, there is also a widely held theory that the main ones eg Mark etc were not written by one person but rather a group/commune of people who's leader was called Mark, Luke, Matthew etc. I tend to adhere to this theory along with with the possibility that much of the information they contain was gathered  from from the Q document  ( Quelle = source ). 

Hence the notion that the Gospels of Luke and John were  plagiarised ( sp ) from Mark's writings is not necessarily correct. While they may have drawn some information from these, there is the theory that they also used the Q  document as their main source of information.

www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/hypothetical.html

[twyngwyn]

another good book:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/110763.The_Gnostic_Gospels

[twyngwyn]

this one too:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/386559.Beyond_Belief

[myoclon1cjerk]

And this one by Christopher Hitchens.
god is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
This controversial New York Times Bestseller, in true Dawkinsian (Richard Dawkins) style, makes the ultimate case against religion addressing the aspects of life that fall prey to its ceremonies, rituals and teachings. Citing contemporary scientific theories and discoveries, Hitchens expertly crafts his case in considering the merits of a secular life of reason and empirical understanding, rather than faith. It is definitely a book that will rouse its readers into discussion with high-tension topics such as radicalism and the folly of blind faith. Whether you practice a religion or not, wish to better develop your position on this complex debate, or the premise has captured your intellectual curiosity, this book won’t be forgotten easily.

[tasfleur]

This subject has really spiked my interest so I have ordered both those books via Kindle today (thanks lyhargr).

It just may reinforce what I think about the whole Jesus story; that is to say, I do believe he existed but was not a god, was not born of a virgin, was crucified but didn't come back to life, and most likely certainly was an incredibly charasmatic man who had a lot to say and do that was important to him, but perhaps more importantly, to his followers who felt they needed such a leader.

[domino-710]

This is why it is ' termed ' ' The Greatest Story Ever told '. 

[not_for_sale2025]

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@tasfleur wrote:

This subject has really spiked my interest so I have ordered both those books via Kindle today (thanks lyhargr).

It just may reinforce what I think about the whole Jesus story; that is to say, I do believe he existed but was not a god, was not born of a virgin, was crucified but didn't come back to life, and most likely certainly was an incredibly charasmatic man who had a lot to say and do that was important to him, but perhaps more importantly, to his followers who felt they needed such a leader.

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I feel similarly to you. I have read The Bible from cover to cover and was far more confused when I put it down. But what stood out to me was His messages about love, caring, the value of each person and forgiveness. I just happened to agree with Him, irrespective of who He was or wasn't. What I have found ironic however is some of the rudest, nastiest and cruelest people I have met were self-professed Christians. I guess they missed His messages!

[lyhargr_0]

One of my favourites is Mere Christianity  ..... C S Lewis, whether you agree with him or not, imo it's  good read