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on 19-11-2021 07:27 AM
There is sometimes some confusion about whether COVID-19 is the same as 'flu. Is it just a type of 'flu? Is it a more virulent strain like the 'flu of 1918 (Spanish flu)? Can't we just treat it in the same way that we treat the 'flu?
There are similarities between COVID-19 and influenza
- They are both respiratory diseases.
- They are both contagious.
- They are both airborne (can be transmitted via tiny particles suspended in the air). Droplet (close contact infection from larger sized particles) or fomite transmission (from surfaces) is also common to both.
- They can both result in pneumonia which complicates the patient's outcome.
- Those infected can be asymptomatic (no symptoms), have mild symptoms, have moderate symptoms, or have severe symptoms. Some patients will die.
- People infected with either COVID-19 or 'flu can transmit the disease while asymptomatic, hence they may never know that they have passed on a disease to others.
- Symptoms of COVID-19 and influenza can be similar, but loss of taste or smell is far more likely to occur with COVID-19 than with 'flu.
CAN COVID-19 be diagnosed by symptoms?
Neither 'flu nor COVID-19 can be diagnosed from the symptoms experienced by the patient, although previously, unless it was clinically necessary, GPs may have diagnosed 'flu based upon sympoms. (That's less likely to happen now with the risk of COVID-19.) A diagnostic test (PCR) is the most accurate way to test for either 'flu or COVID-19, and there's even a est (multiplex assay) that can test for influenza A, influenza B or COVID-19 at one and the same time.
REDUCING RISKS is the same for both diseases
- Hand hygiene
- Cough etiquette (cough into crook of elbow, not into hands)
- Social distancing
- Air filtering/purifying/ventilation
- Mask wearing (ensure no gaps)
- Avoid touching face or adjusting mask
- Quarantine and isolation where required
VIRUS THAT CAUSE COVID-19 vs VIRUSES THAT CAUSE 'FLU
These two diseases are not caused by the same viruses. COVID-19 is not a type of 'flu.
Coronavirus
SARS-CoV-2, the virus which causes COVID-19, is a coronavirus (spherical, with a lipid (fat) layer, and their surface is studded with protein spikes) which is a positive-sense single-stranded RNA virus. It enters human cells primarily by binding to an enzyme called ACE2. Other coronaviruses include that which causes SARS, that which causes MERS, and those which are part of a range of different viruses that cause the common cold.
SARS-CoV-2 is identified as being a strain of the virus that causes SARS, based upon conserved sequences of nucleic acids. This does not mean that SARS-CoV-2 is a mutation of the SARS virus; these two made the jump from bat-reservoir to humans separately.
SARS is considered to be eradicated in terms of human-to-human transmission, primarily because containment measures were very effective. Patients with SARS were most infectious if they were severely ill, and in the second week of their infection (while their symptoms were severe). There were 774 confirmed deaths due to SARS. Now, because the last outbreak of SARS was years ago, it ceased to be a global priority. No effective antiviral treatments currently exist, and work on a vaccine stalled because of lack of funding years ago. However, that early work was pivotal in driving vaccine development for SARS-CoV-2; without that groundwork, we might still be waiting for a COVID-19 vaccine. This highlights just how important it is for funding to be readily available.
This contrasts with how easily SARS-CoV-2 is spread - in particular with the Delta variant being transmissible within as early as 1-2 days of exposure, and while the person is asymptomatic.
MERS is more deadly than SARS-CoV-2, but nowhere near as easily transmitted. Direct or indirect contact with camels is the most likely route for infection; human-to-human transmission can occur, but it requires close contact, and there's no evidence of asymptomatic transmission. There have been 885 confirmed deaths due to MERS. There's no current effective treatment, but several vaccines are in clinical trials. It is not considered a priority risk to the global population.
Influenzavirus
But when we come to influenza, it's caused by negative-sense, single-stranded, segmented RNA viruses that use glycoproteins as their break-and-entry method into cells. There are four types of influenza: influenza A virus (the most virulent - i.e., deadly - human flu virus, and the one that's responsible for human epidemics/pandemics), influenza B virus (slower to mutate and doesn't cause pandemics, but can still cause deaths globally), influenza C (usually only causes mild disease in children), and influenza D (not known to cause infections in humans).
Quadrivalent 'flu vaccines are highly effective in preventing infection by either of the known circulating influenza B virus lineages, and in fact it is possible that the hygiene/containment measures against COVID-19 have actually eliminated one of those two lineages. There still remains the B/Victoria/2/87 lineage, and the current 'flu vaccine remains effective against that.
By far the most dangerous 'flu virus for us is influenza A. The current 'flu vaccine is effective against the circulating strains (H1N1 and H3N2). The 'flu vaccine must be regularly updated with newly emerging seed strains, as influenza A mutates rapidly. If a new and deadlier strain that could be transmitted human-to-human were to emerge - say, of H5N1 - there would be a timelag before it could be identified and a vaccine developed against that specific strain. In that event, the number of deaths would be high.
"Just" the 'flu?
Let's not minimise the effect of the 'flu upon humans. We see annual deaths of seasonal 'flu, mostly among the unvaccinated and the vulnerable, in the order of ~300,000 globally. Better hygiene measures and an end to the "soldier on" attitude when one has 'flu symptoms does see this number go down dramatically, as evidenced by the 2020/2021 'flu season results.
However, when virulent and highly contagious new strains seed in the wild, there arises a pandemic risk. When we see 'flu pandemics, they are not something to be sneezed at (excuse the pun). They have been deadly and catastrophic. We haven't defeated the 'flu, and living with the 'flu means constant vigilance by the CDC to identify new strains, and using those strains as attenuated versions for use in the updated quadrivalent vaccine for the upcoming season.
Without that ongoing work, the world as it is could not continue to function.
When I hear people comparing the 'flu with COVID-19, they are talking about the 'flu as it is now - that is, under strong control, with high immunity levels in the community due to many people having regular 'flu shots, and those shots being regularly updated with the strains out in the wild. Natural immunity to 'flu lineages doesn't last a lifetime, not even for influenza B, and certainly not for influenza A.
We should not trivialise 'flu. New 'flu pandemics are epidemiologically sure to arise, and they will kill and cause chaos.
But at the moment, we're in the COVID-19 pandemic. COVID-19 has Reff of 8 (Delta variant), and that's higher than the Reff of the 'flu strains that have caused pandemics. Thank God we have developed effective vaccines and that vaccine development is continuing. Thank God we've got oral drug treatments already in line for approval. We'll only get on top of this by global vaccination and in addition by making sure that drug treatments are made available. Vaccination is even more important against COVID-19 than it is against 'flu - but we can't do without either.
Discussion welcome.
Solved! Go to Solution.
COVID-19 vs Flu ... Oils ain't oils
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on 29-11-2021 11:07 AM
UK death rate showing crash in unvaxxed deaths to that not much higher than the vaxxed - herd immunity effects by the vaxxed or cross-immunisation or more effective treatment or a combination of all ?
COVID-19 vs Flu ... Oils ain't oils
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on 29-11-2021 11:31 AM
Dying from covid-19 and dying with covid-19 are two different events - if toddlers, children, teenies , young adults died from covid-19 there would have been a mass die off event over the last two years
However a covid-19 infection tends to exacerbate an existing life threatening condition in the young but one fatality clearly does not make a deadly pandemic for that age cohort
And who will take the blame for any deadly vaccine adverse events which will be obvious for that age range ?
COVID-19 vs Flu ... Oils ain't oils
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on 29-11-2021 11:38 AM
It’s as predicted. Look at percentages of deaths in unvaccinated people compared to percentages of deaths among vaccinated, for one thing.
Also, as vaccination levels increase, you’ll see data for deaths reflect that high coverage. Apply simple mathematics to a think-scenario where everyone is vaccinated. Obviously in such a scenario, deaths would occur only among the vaccinated because there would be no unvaccinated people.
We’d only NOT see that happening if the vaccines were 100% effective at preventing death from COVID-19. With very high effectiveness in preventing severe disease and death, 90%-95%, there would be as low a number of adverse outcomes as possible.
Read here, for instance, for further discussion.
COVID-19 vs Flu ... Oils ain't oils
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on 29-11-2021 07:10 PM
Around 40,000 cases per day in the U.K with a daily death rate of about 140. Hardly a ringing endorsement of Tories' policies re covid. Still, as long as businesses are making a buck, I suppose.
COVID-19 vs Flu ... Oils ain't oils
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on 29-11-2021 08:06 PM
1918 "Spanish flu" was considered to have caused 50m untimely deaths but I think within the known world , as for the not so westernised world of late 1910's .... who* knows the real worldwide total
( *not that WHO but who is in what person )
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on 29-11-2021 08:17 PM
Well Delta has not wiped out 50% of aged care facility clients, like alpha did in the beginning , at least in one facility - and as for the current grinding daily toll ( that fortunately is reducing ) - i suspect is more to do with far less people being Govt supported and so people not feeling so obligated to diligently conform to the decrees of lockdown , hence containment has been patchy
However with all the vaxxing going on , this would imply that delta is more deadly than alpha
COVID-19 vs Flu ... Oils ain't oils
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on 29-11-2021 08:41 PM
@rogespeed wrote:Well Delta has not wiped out 50% of aged care facility clients, like alpha did in the beginning , at least in one facility - and as for the current grinding daily toll ( that fortunately is reducing ) - i suspect is more to do with far less people being Govt supported and so people not feeling so obligated to diligently conform to the decrees of lockdown , hence containment has been patchy
However with all the vaxxing going on , this would imply that delta is more deadly than alpha
----------------------
I think the main difference in aged care facilities this year is that now most patients are double vaxxed.
In the one where my brother in law caught covid, there were 30 people apparently in that ward area and all but 2 caught covid. Of the 28 with it though, only 2 died.
Let's be honest here, these would all be people with a lot of pre existing conditions, otherwise they wouldn't be in a nursing home in the first place.
I can't say for sure of course but I suspect last year, quite a few more would have died. This year, even though their immunity wasn't high enough to prevent them catching covid, most of them were able to recover and that's pretty much what we've been told is how the vaccine works, that if you do get covid, vaccination makes it more survivable.
COVID-19 vs Flu ... Oils ain't oils
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on 30-11-2021 10:03 AM
@rogespeed wrote:Dying from covid-19 and dying with covid-19 are two different events - if toddlers, children, teenies , young adults died from covid-19 there would have been a mass die off event over the last two years
However a covid-19 infection tends to exacerbate an existing life threatening condition in the young but one fatality clearly does not make a deadly pandemic for that age cohort
And who will take the blame for any deadly vaccine adverse events which will be obvious for that age
*************************************************
“Dying from covid-19 and dying with covid-19 are two different events -“
If a person of ANY age has health issues, contracts covid, and dies….then that person died OF COVID!
Covid is the cause of death.
If a person of ANY age contracts covid, walks across the street and gets killed by a bus, then that person died WITH COVID.
Obviously, covid is not the cause of death.
Death is determined by the most recent and prominent presentation of illness or accident.
Underlying health conditions are also listed on the death certificate.These certificates must be completed by the GP or Coroner.
Falsifying information is a criminal offence, so it pays to get it right.
Be Kind To Nurses....
They Stop The Doctors From Killing You.
COVID-19 vs Flu ... Oils ain't oils
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on 30-11-2021 04:47 PM
Appears the latest variant is infecting a younger cohort but although not all populations are the same regarding propensity to become infected I can imagine is better to vax everyone , with continued meaningful mitigation procedures in place to keep ambient viral loadings low
COVID-19 vs Flu ... Oils ain't oils
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on 30-11-2021 05:42 PM
@rogespeed wrote:Appears the latest variant is infecting a younger cohort but although not all populations are the same regarding propensity to become infected I can imagine is better to vax everyone , with continued meaningful mitigation procedures in place to keep ambient viral loadings low
Goody.

