on 14-08-2014 06:14 PM
I have just finished reading Origin of The Species. As far as I can see there is nothing that Darwin says that denies a Creator - in fact his last sentence enforces Creation. I agree with his ideas on natural selection etc and that original creation did not involve the thousands of species that we now have.
"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone circling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
** NB depending on the definition of 'few'.
on 16-08-2014 04:16 AM
@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:
Oh! No! Not the Trinity again. The three part god is a Pagan belief that predates Christianity by Thousands of Years - again the Romans are responsible for applying it to Christianity.
Of course the Romans inserted their pagan beliefs into the Bible. The Romans invented Christianity when the Emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to write the Bible.
I think this thread has wandered off topic. The link posted above by rabbitearbandicoot: Did Darwin Believe in God? authoritatively answers the question. It seems that Darwin was either an atheist or an agnostic. However, a belief in evolution is not necessarily incompatible with a belief in god. It's just not the same god that religious fundamentalists believe in (as religious fundamentalists seem to believe that the bible is literally rather than figuratively true). As I understand it, most scientists belive in god, but the don't believe that the bible answers all questions.
on 16-08-2014 07:15 AM
@aftanas wrote:
@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:
Oh! No! Not the Trinity again. The three part god is a Pagan belief that predates Christianity by Thousands of Years - again the Romans are responsible for applying it to Christianity.
Of course the Romans inserted their pagan beliefs into the Bible. The Romans invented Christianity when the Emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to write the Bible.
I think this thread has wandered off topic. The link posted above by rabbitearbandicoot: Did Darwin Believe in God? authoritatively answers the question. It seems that Darwin was either an atheist or an agnostic. However, a belief in evolution is not necessarily incompatible with a belief in god. It's just not the same god that religious fundamentalists believe in (as religious fundamentalists seem to believe that the bible is literally rather than figuratively true). As I understand it, most scientists belive in god, but the don't believe that the bible answers all questions.
Actually most scientist don't believe in God and those that do define God in such a way it doesn't even resemble an intervening God. A bit like the Einsteinian God.
Scientist from centuries ago, most of them believed in God because back then everyone did.
I prefer to keep to the OP topic because there's enough there without having to go off topic.
on 16-08-2014 11:05 AM
she-ele wrote:
"Were the initial spirit Jesus in heaven and the subsequent human Jesus the son of Mary two different creations? Was the human Jesus not the son of God? and if he was, did he inherit his father's DNA or only his mother's?"
The initial Jesus in the spiritual realm was God's first creation. When Jesus came to earth and was born to Mary, you could call it ( for the benefit of those who will giggle at a virgin birth) an artificial insemination.
They tell me it is possible for doctors to implant a fertilized egg into the womb of a woman - it doesn't matter much whose egg and whose sperm make up that fertilized egg and so the mothers DNA may not come into it at all.
I would think that it would not be an impossible task for the God who can create anything, to implant a fertilized egg into Mary which would render the baby a PERFECT HUMAN BEING with none of the intrisic DNA corruptions that make all of us so fragile. God, being a Spirit would not have DNA - it's a bit like saying does electricity have DNA? And, before anyone asks I am not comparing God to electricity.
on 16-08-2014 11:23 AM
aftanas wrote:"Of course the Romans inserted their pagan beliefs into the Bible. The Romans invented Christianity when the Emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to write the Bible."
You've got that almost right. Constantne invented the Roman version of Christianity - a corruption of the original truths taught by Jesus as I have said many times, an invention to cement together the various Pagan beliefs into one religion that by that definition MUST be false. Let's take a cask of the very finest wine - add in some other ingredients out of a cheap grape juice and what do you have? That's right. A cheap, corrupted version of the a fine wine.
No, I don't think Constantine wrote the Bible, over the years the Books that make up the Bible were catalogued, and some books were also added to the Roman version and are still there today.
Aftanas wrote:" However, a belief in evolution is not necessarily incompatible with a belief in god. "
That's exactly what I have been saying all the way along - I believe in God (Yahweh/Jehovah) but I also believe that the original creations fashioned by Him have evolved into more lines - see my example above about the chickens. I used to breed dogs and I am well aware that the breeds of dogs we have around now are nothing like the breeds of even a few hundred years ago let alone a few thousand years ago or a few million years ago.
on 16-08-2014 02:52 PM
My understanding of the history is that Constantine was not 100% pious. He was first and foremost the Emperor of Rome and Christianity was a useful tool. I am not saying that compilation and writing of the bible by the council of Nicaea was a cynical political stunt, but in codifying and standarising the christian creed Constantine's political ends were also advanced.
It is also important to note that Constantine did not accept baptism until he was near death. That is, Constantine was free to do whatever an Emperor needed to do to maintain order in the knowledge that all his sins would be washed away before his death.
As for the bible being literally or even figuratively true, I doubt it very much. I don't believe that the bible has anything to tell us about evolution, either for or against. And, while The Origin of the Species is a seminal work on evolution, it is not the best book to read on the subject. The science of genetics had not been invented at this stage, and I don't think it is possible to properly understand evolution in the absence of a consideration of genetics. I recommend The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins which deals with both subjects, and also explains how self replicating molecules can spontaneously come into existence in the primordial oceans.
As for scientists believing in god, science can neither prove nor disprove god's existence. It is easy to pick holes in the bible or any other religious text, but that doesn't disprove the existence of a creator.
The basis of science is to test a hypothesis for the purpose of disproving it. If the hypothesis cannot be disproved and it serves to explain and predict observable data, it is accepted as valid until a better hypothesis comes along. While certain generally accepted scientific theories may be incompatible with the doctrines of many or all of the established religions, that only proves that the doctrines themselves are incorrect. It does not speak to the question of a divine and unknowable creator.