Dawkins on Down Syndrome foetus: "Abort and Try again"

[the_bob_delusion]

“Abort it and try again. It would be immoral to bring it into the world if you have the choice,” -Dawkins.

Discuss. 

[lealta]

Thank you so much secondhand-wonderland.  I too enjoyed this discussion.  I believe people can disagree on this topic without being disagreeable.   And just so you know, had I ever found myself with an unwanted pregnancy, I would have gone ahead with it.  I could never have an abortion just for convenience sake. 

[lealta]

When a woman's life is at stake the Catholic Church doesn't consider it immoral if a procedure results in the death of the unborn.

If only the procedure of abortion is done to save the mother's life, then they do consider it wrong. 

There are situations, of course, in which the life of the child might be lost while attempting to save the life of the mother. As long as the death of the child is not intended but is an unfortunate side effect of the attempt to save the life of the mother, the action is not objectively evil. For instance, if the administration of a necessary medication were to result in a spontaneous abortion, that would fall under the principle of "double effect." The abortion was a result of the medication, but it was not the intended result.

But abortion itself—a direct assault on the unborn child—can never fall under the principle of double effect, because the intention of the abortion is to end the life of the child. That is true even if that intention is only the means to the end of saving the life of the mother.

[k0llectable5]

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@lealta wrote:

Thank you so much secondhand-wonderland.  I too enjoyed this discussion.  I believe people can disagree on this topic without being disagreeable.   And just so you know, had I ever found myself with an unwanted pregnancy, I would have gone ahead with it.  I could never have an abortion just for convenience sake. 

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You're welcome 🙂

In an ideal world we should all be able to disagree without being disagreeable.  Sometimes it takes a minor disagreement to have occured in order to learn more about the topic at hand.  I try to have an open mind in relation to all the topics that I contribute to on here.  I dont want to fight with people but I do like hearing all different opinions on the topics that we discuss.  And I am very opinionated myself so therefore I have to allow others to express themselves as well.  Plus I am just genuinely interested in what other people think.

Ditto to your comment: I could never have an abortion just for convenience sake. 

[ruloinfovoter]

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@lealta wrote:

When a woman's life is at stake the Catholic Church doesn't consider it immoral if a procedure results in the death of the unborn.

If only the procedure of abortion is done to save the mother's life, then they do consider it wrong. 

There are situations, of course, in which the life of the child might be lost while attempting to save the life of the mother. As long as the death of the child is not intended but is an unfortunate side effect of the attempt to save the life of the mother, the action is not objectively evil. For instance, if the administration of a necessary medication were to result in a spontaneous abortion, that would fall under the principle of "double effect." The abortion was a result of the medication, but it was not the intended result.

But abortion itself—a direct assault on the unborn child—can never fall under the principle of double effect, because the intention of the abortion is to end the life of the child. That is true even if that intention is only the means to the end of saving the life of the mother.

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Here's what I said, the full thing:

..."your Catholic Church"... 

When a woman's life is at stake the Catholic Church doesn't consider it immoral if a procedure results in the death of the unborn. The Catholic Church considers abortion the intentional destruction of innocent life.

If a woman's life is at stake, it is not an intentional destruction of innocent life to perform procedures that save her life. Therefore, it is moral.

If you want to agree that the only definition of an abortion is the deliberate destruction of an innocent life and a deliberate destruction only of an innocent life, for no other purpose, then yes, the Catholic Church is against it always, it is evil, immoral.

But the Church doesn't believe that if an abortion happens as a result of trying to save the mother's life that that is immoral or evil.

For instance, if a woman's has cancer and it has to be removed to save her life and the baby dies as a result, no, the Catholic Church does not believe that is immoral or evil.

[the_bob_delusion]

Ummmm, who caries what the Catholic church says or think???? I don't get it. Even if you believe in the religion. You only have to answer to God and not the church.

[ruloinfovoter]

Shouldn't you be asking that to Lealta?

[lealta]

There is a huge difference between treating a woman who has a potentially deadly illness, in which treatment can potentially kill a fetus, and the extracting of a fetus so that the mother can subsequently have treatment. If for instance, the mother needs to be treated with a drug that could damage the fetus, it is still required by the Catholic Church that she bring that baby to term, even if the baby is severely brain damaged.

[ruloinfovoter]

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@lealta wrote:
There is a huge difference between treating a woman who has a potentially deadly illness, in which treatment can potentially kill a fetus, and the extracting of a fetus so that the mother can subsequently have treatment. If for instance, the mother needs to be treated with a drug that could damage the fetus, it is still required by the Catholic Church that she bring that baby to term, even if the baby is severely brain damaged.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Right, lol, in the former it is saving the life of the mother not just deliberatly ending the life of the baby, not immoral. The latter is abortion because it is done not in order to save the mother's life but to avoid giving birth to a baby that will or may be less than perfect, immoral.

The huge difference is the difference between moral and immoral.

To be clear, when you say require, the Church does not enforce.

[isgodnu]

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@**what_would_bob_do** wrote:

Ummmm, who caries what the Catholic church says or think???? I don't get it. Even if you believe in the religion. You only have to answer to God and not the church.

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Who cares what God says or thinks? You only have to ask yourself if you feel any guilt.

[isgodnu]

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@**what_would_bob_do** wrote:

Actually you implied abortion is murder and committing suicide murder when you said it's double murder. Did I quote you properly?

So what would you say is an appropriate punishment for abortion?

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I think she should have to write a book and become a celebrity.

American 'abortion addict' reveals she terminated 15 pregnancies in 17 years

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1220095/American-abortion-addict-15-terminations-17-years-pu...