Innocent Until Proven Guilty

In your opinion, should this presumption be reversed in Australia?

 

If not universally, are there some instances where this may be beneficial or desirable?

 

 


Some people can go their whole lives and never really live for a single minute.
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Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2013/4/18/unexplained-wealth-power-best-to-stay-with-the-stat...


The Queensland Government recently announced that, as part of its multi‐
pronged approach to tackling organised crime and outlaw motorcycle gangs,
legislation was being drafted to allow the confiscation of unexplained
wealth.

“This legislation sends a clear message we will not tolerate the state being used by organised crime gangs as a safe haven to store their proceeds of crime.

“This Government is committed to addressing organised crime and pursuing legislative reform to make the state a safer place for all Queenslanders and we will not be bullied by the Federal Government.”

18 April 2013

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Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty


@izabsmiling wrote:

No not reversed .

As it is suspension from certain positions once charged until a the matter is decided in a legal manner and depending on the outcome.

Does holding people in custody/giving bail conditions 'pre-court hearing' in a way lean towards guilt ?


Hi Iza,

You raise a good point as to why the reversal may not be a great thing to apply universally or at least without reserve.

 

I think that you may have guessed that this line of thought sprung from the doctor and the rope thread. If not, I'll confirm that is why I have begun to consider the validity of at least having the option of a reversal of the presumption in some circumstances.

 

Would suspension from certain positions be a bad thing in cases such as that?

 

Someone has made an accusation and produced photographic evidence. I'm not really aware of what technological possibilities surround photography, but I would think that verifying the authenticity of photographs would be a reasonably easy and quick thing to do.

 

Those particular photos, assuming they are authentic, showed evidence of a pretty unorthodox practise by a doctor against a child.

 

Lets say the accusations were made. The photographs produced and authenticated as being genuine. Based on the content of the photos, in my mind, there is reason to arouse suspicion that there could be some validity in the accusations which could warrant further investigation.

 

In a situation such as that, where the very nature of the job puts even more children at risk, wouldn't it be a good thing for the accused to have restrictions or limitations applied immediately, rather than allow them access to the vulnerable until such a time as an arrest is made, in this case 5 months later.

 

Maybe laws could be changed, so that instead of immediate suspension, perhaps something like "supervised whilst under investigation" could be an option. Something as simple as having a second, independent person present whilst the doctor continued on with their practise.

 

I don't know about most dentists, but mine always has another person in the room, (the nurse with the sucky thing) so that concept isn't too foreign,

 

In a situation like this, the restrictions would assist in the protection of quite a few children over a 5 month period.

 

During this period of investigation, the children are protected, but the doctor has the opportunity to present explanations for his actions and arguments as to why he should not be convicted. The prosecution also has time to investigate and determine what if any charges should be laid and presented before a court for a ruling. Just like they do now.

 

I realize that this would be difficult to substantiate or initiate without some kind of mitigating evidence to begin with.

 

I'm also thinking that new laws or at least precautions could be implemented to protect doctors from false accusations i'e make it mandatory to have a second person present. We put safety guards on machinery and equipment as a precautionary measure. Why not employ precautionary measures for the protection of the doctor and ultimately the child?


Some people can go their whole lives and never really live for a single minute.
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Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty


@monman12 wrote:

"Innocent Until Proven Guilty"

 

Actually the term is presumption of innocence, and it makes for an interesting debate when you equate that with another legal term :strict liability.

 

Example of strict  liability

a pharmacist supplied drugs to a patient who presented a forged doctor's prescription, but was convicted even though the House of Lords accepted that the pharmacist was blameless.

 

A strict liability offences allow for the imposition of criminal liability without the need to prove fault, strict liability offences directly engage and limit the presumption of innocence

 

nɥºɾ

 


You've got my interest, how would you start the debate?


Some people can go their whole lives and never really live for a single minute.
Message 23 of 27
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Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty


@izabsmiling wrote:

http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2013/4/18/unexplained-wealth-power-best-to-stay-with-the-stat...


The Queensland Government recently announced that, as part of its multi‐
pronged approach to tackling organised crime and outlaw motorcycle gangs,
legislation was being drafted to allow the confiscation of unexplained
wealth.

“This legislation sends a clear message we will not tolerate the state being used by organised crime gangs as a safe haven to store their proceeds of crime.

“This Government is committed to addressing organised crime and pursuing legislative reform to make the state a safer place for all Queenslanders and we will not be bullied by the Federal Government.”

18 April 2013


Queensland introduced the Proceeds of Crime Act in 2002, in there, there are provisions for the reveral of the presumption. I was outraged at the time I learned this and wrote a paper about "Australia's Legal Fiction". Three years on though, I can see merit. I now understand why sometimes there could be a need to work faster than our legal system currently allows.


Some people can go their whole lives and never really live for a single minute.
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Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty


@retailtherapist_8 wrote:

I would say no but would prefer the police to have wider ranging power to detain for longer a suspect of certain crimes.

 

The only other thing I would add crikey, is that the Parole Boards in this country are in desperate need of an overhaul. The people and the control they have over releasing criminals convicted of violent crime. These are the guilty. My heart goes out to the victims and  families of victims who have to live their lives knowing that the criminal who devastated thier lives is now free to live amongst them. 

 

 


Aren't parole boards limited to penalties applied bybthe courts?

 

Can a parole board release someone before their minimum sentence has been served?

 

There are 5 recognized purposes for imprisonment, the conditions and duration of the sentence are determined by which purpose/s is/are applied.

 


Some people can go their whole lives and never really live for a single minute.
Message 25 of 27
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Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty


@newstart2380 wrote:

@crikey*mate wrote:

In your opinion, should this presumption be reversed in Australia?

 

If not universally, are there some instances where this may be beneficial or desirable?

 

 


In some instances it is more than obvious the perons/s are guilty but unfortunately our antiquated judicial system has not been revised and until then clearly guilty people will be given the benifit of the doubt.

What makes me angry is that even if the perpitrator/s is caught on camera they are presumed innocent unil proven guilty. The old saying everyone deserves their day in court is ones right.

I have had personal experience with a guilty person who "got off" because of a technicality and a queens council who apologised to me after the case and the magistrate also made it clear that even though he had to make the decision of not guilty because of the evidence he believed the person was responsible.


Are you saying that the reversal could be benificial and justifiable in circumstances where some primary mitigating evidence exists?

 

How do you think a reversal of the presumption would have resulted in a different outcome for the incident that you describe?


Some people can go their whole lives and never really live for a single minute.
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Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Yes they  are but it seems rehabilitation has not taken place in too many cases. I use the Jill Meagher story as an example, and its one of many unfortunately. Smiley Sad 

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