Should we teach both Evolution and Intelligent Design in science classes?

[the_bob_delusion]

Should we teach both and let the students decide for themselves?

Go

[the_great_she_elephant]

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

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@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

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@*julia*2010 wrote:

As a poll reveals that more than a quarter of science teachers believe creationism should be taught alongside evolution, Oktar is offering an implausibly large reward to anyone who can point to a single fossil that proves evolution.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2008/dec/22/atlas-creationism-adnan-oktar-harun-yahya

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Well Oktar is pretty safe there as one single fossil could never prove anything.

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ele, can you explain to me just how fossils prove evolution? The fact that there are animal fossils (of now extinct animals) throughout the various rock layers etc - how does that prove evolution? ** I use the word 'animal' in it's losest form.

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On their own they don't prove anything, and the evidence for evolution would be pretty conclusive  without a single fossil ever being found. but studying them in conjunction with other disciplines such as geology and biology, gives a good indication of how life evolved and the periods over which this happened. Contrary to what some creationists say, there are many transitional fossils which show how species evolved.  http://www.transitionalfossils.com/

[rabbitearbandicoot]

"Nothing outside the bible, not even a scrap, proves it to be true."

Using your Gilgamesh reference - I haven't read the others yet, but I will.

Gilgamesh was a king of Uruk, Mesopotamia, who lived sometime between 2800 and 2500 BC. He is the main character
in the Epic of Gilgamesh, an Akkadian poem that is considered the first great work of literature, and in earlier Sumerian poems.

In the epic, Gilgamesh is a demigod of superhuman strength who built the city walls of Uruk to defend his people and travelled to meet
the sage Utnapishtim, who survived the Great Deluge.

There are so many so called 'myths' throughout the world which speak of a great 'Deluge of Water' where only a few survived - too many for it to be coincidence. So, this is one  of the so called 'not even a scrap proves it to be true'??

[rabbitearbandicoot]

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@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

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@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

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@*julia*2010 wrote:

As a poll reveals that more than a quarter of science teachers believe creationism should be taught alongside evolution, Oktar is offering an implausibly large reward to anyone who can point to a single fossil that proves evolution.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2008/dec/22/atlas-creationism-adnan-oktar-harun-yahya

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Well Oktar is pretty safe there as one single fossil could never prove anything.

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ele, can you explain to me just how fossils prove evolution? The fact that there are animal fossils (of now extinct animals) throughout the various rock layers etc - how does that prove evolution? ** I use the word 'animal' in it's losest form.

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On their own they don't prove anything, and the evidence for evolution would be pretty conclusive  without a single fossil ever being found. but studying them in conjunction with other disciplines such as geology and biology, gives a good indication of how life evolved and the periods over which this happened. Contrary to what some creationists say, there are many transitional fossils which show how species evolved.  http://www.transitionalfossils.com/

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" the evidence for evolution would be pretty conclusive  without a single fossil ever being found." - 

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Meanwhile I'll read that link.

[curmu-curmu]

"There are so many so called 'myths' throughout the world which speak of a great 'Deluge of Water' where only a few survived - too many for it to be coincidence. So, this is one  of the so called 'not even a scrap proves it to be true'??"

And curiously, they predate the bible by hundreds, possibly thousands of years! Don't forget that biblical historians date the flood to be around 4000 years ago.

Homer's Iliad, (written around 10,000 years ago - that's ten THOUSAND years), was also predated by the verbal accounts of Gilgamesh - possibly 1500 years before the Iliad.

Even if you accept modern scholars dating these much later, the fact remains that there's absolutely NO geological evidence for a flood.

So where does this leave Noah's flood?  Only around 6000 years AFTER the other two. But wait...there's more!

There's even more tales of floods, similar godly beings and superhumans like Jesus, but it's fatuously pointless even going there.

The two above clearly demonstrate my point. Well, to those with open minds, anyway!

[the_great_she_elephant]

" the evidence for evolution would be pretty conclusive  without a single fossil ever being found." - 

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Anatomy, biology, genetics, zoology, botany: a study ofall or any of these sciences provides evidence that species have evolved rather than each one being separately created . 

[rabbitearbandicoot]

Homers Illiad - 10,000 years ago? Right !!!!!!!!!.

The Iliad Ancient Greek: sometimes referred to as the Song of Ilion or Song of Ilium) is an ancient Greek epic poem in dactylic
hexameter, traditionally attributed to Homer. Set during the Trojan War, the ten-year siege of the city of Troy (Ilium) by a coalition
of Greek states, it tells of the battles and events during the weeks of a quarrel between King Agamemnon and the warrior Achilles.

Trojan Wars - those who believe that the stories of the Trojan War are derived from a specific historical conflict usually date it to the 12th or 11th centuries BC, often preferring the dates given byEratosthenes, 1194–1184 BC, which roughly corresponds with archaeological evidence of a catastrophic burning of Troy VII.[4]

Illiad - written AFTER the Trojan Wars - so AFTER 1194 BC - so MAXIMUM 3,200 years ago..

Bible Flood - 2300 BC so 4,384 years ago.

But, don't let the truth get in the WAY OF A GOOD STORY.

{EDIT:} Gilgamesh was a king of Uruk, Mesopotamia, who lived sometime between 2800 and 2500 BC

[myoclon1cjerk]

There were probably instances in the distant past where massive flooding resulted in catastrophic loss of life.I have read that such an ocurrence may have happened around the Black Sea at the end of the Ice Age (climate change)
It's a bit of a stretch though,to believe the whole of the earth's land mass was inundated.Noah and the handful of survivors must have been going at it like rabbits for us to end up with a population of 7 billion plus today.

[rabbitearbandicoot]

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@myoclon1cjerk wrote:
There were probably instances in the distant past where massive flooding resulted in catastrophic loss of life.I have read that such an ocurrence may have happened around the Black Sea at the end of the Ice Age (climate change)
It's a bit of a stretch though,to believe the whole of the earth's land mass was inundated.Noah and the handful of survivors must have been going at it like rabbits for us to end up with a population of 7 billion plus today.

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I did a spreadsheet once about how many generations it would take to go from 8 people to 7 billion. I took into consideration a 20% death rate from miscellaneous wars, famines etc as well as normal death rates. It's surprising how few generations it took (theoreticall of course). I'll look for it.

[gleee58]

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

"Nothing outside the bible, not even a scrap, proves it to be true."

Using your Gilgamesh reference - I haven't read the others yet, but I will.

Gilgamesh was a king of Uruk, Mesopotamia, who lived sometime between 2800 and 2500 BC. He is the main character
in the Epic of Gilgamesh, an Akkadian poem that is considered the first great work of literature, and in earlier Sumerian poems.

In the epic, Gilgamesh is a demigod of superhuman strength who built the city walls of Uruk to defend his people and travelled to meet
the sage Utnapishtim, who survived the Great Deluge.

There are so many so called 'myths' throughout the world which speak of a great 'Deluge of Water' where only a few survived - too many for it to be coincidence. So, this is one  of the so called 'not even a scrap proves it to be true'??

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That sounds like an interactive teen game/video series.

There have been great deluges of water all over the world from the beginning of time.  They're called floods. We've got better understanding of them and superior technology to deal with them these days.

[curmu-curmu]

Funny how everything you quote, seems to stem from creationist websites - even the so-called 'spreadsheets' you devised - also available on creationist videos/websites/blogs.

If I were a suspicious person, I'd be inclined to think that all of your posts were designed to antagonize, and all actual 'data' drawn from those websites.

Websites which, by the way, have been so thoroughly discredited over the past 20 or so years, that doing so again is just not worth my time.

I'm going to leave this thread now - as I'm over debating tired old creationist hokum, that I discredited over 10 years ago. When you come up with a new and novel argument to attempt to justify your beliefs, I'll be sure to respond.