seems mandatory vaccine is the go for the work place ....

[rogespeed]

The vaccine for covid , seems now being mandated for those currently employed

Seems like a violation of the existing conditions of employment for many , particularly whereby there is no mandate for  influenza vaccine requirement

Of course a harmless vaccine proven to mitigate against deadly covid-19 is desirable however some may object for whatever reason - and as are currently employed , one wonders the moral efficacy of coerced inoculation, as is clearly a workplace agreement item 

There is talk of dismissing currently employed workers for non-compliance

This to me would violate existing workplace agreements and a violation - fully paid leave would be the only  ethical way of excluding current employees ( unless all are retrenched then re-employed under covid safe clauses ) 

If there was no alternate to vaccination a strong case could be argued

But there are alternatives - periodic pcr tests,  daily check-in fast antigen tests , 1 minute on the treadmill 

The vaccines are released under emergency use meaning are experimental , so clearly fall under international law regarding strictly no forcing of experimental treatments

All that i am saying is that while inoculation is the most convenient , controllable and cost effective procedure , there should be an alternate process that meets workplace requirements

[countessalmirena]

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@chameleon54 wrote:

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@countessalmirena wrote:

The media has to bear some of the responsibility. Their irresponsible dramatising of the very very low adverse outcomes of the AstraZeneca vaccine played a huge part in generating some vaccine hesitancy. Ridiculous reporting. Even now, it's almost impossible to have a logical conversation with anyone about that extremely low percentage of blood clotting. If I try to explain by comparing risk (in percentages) of being severely injured or killed in a road accident, there's a definite wall up that means people are not listening. They're not computing the real risk. Their heads are so filled with a different narrative that they are ready to argue and pfffft before hearing the data.

Risk from COVID .............. I ran the numbers ( published statistics from reliable sources )  and in the full year 2020 in Australia, I was approx. 32 times more likely to die in a farming accident, ( adjusted to exclude children who died on farms ) than I was of dying of COVID.  Puts a bit of perspective on some of the media hype about COVID.

Yes COVID is a risk to health, but simply being employed in farming is a 32 times greater risk. Try telling that to some of our COVID panicked city cousins.

Just to illustrate the point

https://www.finder.com.au/most-dangerous-jobs-australia 

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Chameleon, I respect your honesty and tough-mindedness. You have faced down quite a few difficulties and just got on with the job. Farming / agriculture work remains - as you've said - a dangerous field for workers, although according to BetterHealth, farm-related accidents are preventable if the proper safety precautions are taken. (I would class it as "largely preventable", not completely, though.)

❝Between 2012 and 2016, there were 16.9 deaths on Australian farms per 100,000 workers, making ‘agriculture, forestry and fishing’ the most highly represented industry in Australia for workplace fatalities.❞

That's 0.0169% risk of dying in a farm-related accident. Even though that is well below 1%, it's still a significant risk. I appreciate the combination of skills involved in being a farmer; it's by no means all about physical labour, but from what I gauge, it's about making quick decisions with new information coming in (weather data, livestock data, logistics data, to touch on just a few) and keeping long-term decisions running in the background (maintenance and repair in particular, I suppose?).

It's not really a comparable analysis of risk when we talk about deaths from COVID-19 and deaths from agricultural accidents, but I'll run with it for now. From SafeWorkAustralia, we know that ❝Over the eight years from 1 July 2003 to 30 June 2011 (over a period of 8 years), 356 workers died while working on a farming property.❞  The FarmSafe report of course shows there has been an increase in agricultural-related deaths: 58 during 2020.

Looking at deaths from COVID-19 since the beginning of the pandemic, there have been 1,590 deaths in Australia. That's over a period of fewer than 2 years.

Australia's done amazingly well to keep the number of cases and the number of deaths so low. The cumulative deaths per 100,000 population (from 1st January 2021 to 15 September 2021) is 0.75 in Australia, but it's 10.77 in Japan, 30.28 in Canada, 58.82 in Sweden, 89.38 in the UK,  93.15 in the US, 213.42 in Hungary. India's had 452,811 (almost half a million) deaths since the beginning of COVID-19.  But let's stick to the Australian numbers... Of course it's not really relevant for us to make a comparison between risk of farm-related deaths and risk of dying of COVID-19... but we're stretching a point here. These numbers are very rough and ready. Note that the COVID-19 total deaths will actually reflect data for fewer than 2 years, as we're only in October now... but we can adjust very roughly.

Note: in the first six months of 2020, there were 33 fatalities on Australian farms. That figure has fallen to 20 for the first six months of 2021.

	Farm/Agriculture-related deaths	COVID-19 deaths
No. of total deaths over 18 months	58 + 20 = 78 1st Jan 2020 - 30 June 2021	1,590 1st March 2020 - September 2021
No. of total deaths over 1 year (calculated)	52	1060

Risky though work on farms is, COVID-19 purely in these terms poses a greater risk per individual. (I'm ignoring other factors and making this an orange-for-orange sort of comparison.) If it hadn't been for the swift mitigations put in place in Australia, the numbers of deaths would have been much higher (with which I know you agree).

In terms of what dangers or challenges might be involved in more city-oriented work, that is probably best not to pursue. As Australians, we complement each other. The country can't get along without the city, and vice versa.  I hope we can respect each other and appreciate the unique contribution all of us make.

[rogespeed]

PCR test proves uninfected at the time of testing - vaccination enables enhanced capacity to fight off an infection with 5 - 10 % of people suffering zero effectiveness ( published efficacy being 90 -95% ) , with days if infected contagious maybe without obvious symptoms 

So within a workplace who has greater sanction ? 

[chameleon54]

@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

Well, there are some very interesting inferences to be drawn from that little rant.

1. Unsafe workplaces are to be preferred to safe ones. 

2. Only those working in an unsafe environment can produce anything of value.

3. Suburban houses are less well constructed than rural ones.

4. Neighbours should be enemies not friends.

5. Children should be encouraged to take up dangerous sports.

6. We should do away with road rules and, presumably, drivers' licences, and let everyone take their chances in a free-for-all

7. Staying safe is only for  wimps.

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As you have rightly pointed out. That is the way you have chosen to interpret and twist my post. It certainly is not what was written. 

@the_great_she_elephant  One thing that is very clear from your posts is that you dont currently run a business and employ people. Its quite possible you have never run a business and employed people in your life. You dont seem to have much idea what you are talking about.

It would be helpful if you could enlighten the board as to your current status as a business owner and employer and what personal experience you are drawing upon to make your clearly  uninformed statements !

My post and other similar recent posts are highlighting the fact that businesses are becoming so constrained with rules, regulations and red tape that it is forcing many to close completely. Some months ago, I posted about our local landscape supplies yard that had operated with eight employees for twenty years without having a single work cover claim.

Safework inspectors did a blitz in our area, visiting businesses including this one and demanded all sorts of changes be made. Aluminium ladders that had done the job for years where condemned as they did not have a load rating printed on them. He was required to paint yellow lines everywhere and restrict customers to stay behind lines. Customers could no longer walk to the partitions and inspect different products that they where interested in purchasing. The list was long and arduous and on top of all the other red tape he was required to contend with, it was the straw that broke the camels back. 

He closed up his business, sacked his eight employees, sold the land to developers and now works behind the counter of a hire company to keep busy.

My Victorian relative faces a similar fate. Successful regional small business, employing a few permanent local staff and he faces the prospect of having to close the doors if he is not able to attract new mechanics to the town to replace the ones forced out by over regulation.

Countess made a very pertinent post claiming anti vaxers where blinkered and not accepting reason. Exactly the same attitude is being shown by pro mandatory vaxers who refuse to acknowledge that it is highly likely they will be infected by COVID before the whole thing is finished and as more people become vaccinated, simple maths shows that infection is most likely to come from some-one who is already fully vaccinated 

Many pro mandatory vaxers refuse to acknowledge the simple truth that fully vaccinated people carry the virus and infect others ( even if it is at a lower rate ) Their minds are as closed to rational, informed  discussion as those they chose to oppose.

My Point - businesses are so over regulated that they are being strangled and NOTHING GETS PRODUCED OR DONE ANYMORE.

Dont believe me, Simple example ........Why are houses so expensive to build now making them unaffordable for many people ?

[the_great_she_elephant]

Chameleon wrote: My Point - businesses are so over regulated that they are being strangled and NOTHING GETS PRODUCED OR DONE ANYMORE.

Another example of blatent hyperbole! I suspect what you actually  meant was not  enough gets produced or done.

[chameleon54]

@the_great_she_elephant - Simple question ............ Do you own a business and how many people do you employ ?

[chameleon54]

@the_great_she_elephant Have you EVER owned a business that employed people ?

Spoiler

Not that the distant past has much bearing on what is happening now, but an interesting question to all the same

Spoiler

I dont mind starting first if that helps you along. Currently I have four registered businesses, each with their own tax file number, ABN etc.  and the most people I have employed at any one time in the past month is four employees.

Spoiler

Your turn She el. You have got a lot to say on the subject, time to back it up with the experience your comments are based upon. 

[the_great_she_elephant]

Chameleon wrote:  As you have rightly pointed out. That is the way you have chosen to interpret and twist my post. It certainly is not what was written. 

Chameleon previously wrote:

"The risks in farming are real, it is not simply a statistical blip, but we just accept the risk and get on with it. It does keep life interesting though. "

"people in general dont experience full lives."

Staying safe is only for  wimps.

"They go to their " safe " work, pushing a computer mouse all day,"

 Only those working in an unsafe environment can produce anything of value.

(they) "drive their " safe" car home on the " safe " road"

We should do away with road rules and, presumably, drivers' licences, and let everyone take their chances in a free-for-all

"They live in a " safe " little house ( made of ticky tacky )"

 Suburban houses are less well constructed than rural ones.

(they have) " identical " safe " neighbours."

Neighbours should be enemies not friends.

the kids play a "safe" sport."

 Children should be encouraged to take up dangerous sports.

Little of value is achieved and absolutely NOTHING is actually done or produced. 

Only those working in an unsafe environment can produce anything of value.

Its no wonder people are so mentally damaged and bored

Staying safe is only for  wimps.

My  inferences (in red)  were drawn from those statements- noting in particular your deliberate use of inverted commas round the word "safe".  Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what inferences you expected us to draw.

[chameleon54]

@the_great_she_elephant Simple question Do you own a business and how many people do you employ ?

[the_great_she_elephant]

Chameleon wrote:  Simple question ............ Do you own a business and how many people do you employ ?

No, I was self employed - but my son does and employs about half a dozen people.

[domino-710]

It defies imagination - how anyone could survive his ego. 🙄