seems mandatory vaccine is the go for the work place ....

[rogespeed]

The vaccine for covid , seems now being mandated for those currently employed

Seems like a violation of the existing conditions of employment for many , particularly whereby there is no mandate for  influenza vaccine requirement

Of course a harmless vaccine proven to mitigate against deadly covid-19 is desirable however some may object for whatever reason - and as are currently employed , one wonders the moral efficacy of coerced inoculation, as is clearly a workplace agreement item 

There is talk of dismissing currently employed workers for non-compliance

This to me would violate existing workplace agreements and a violation - fully paid leave would be the only  ethical way of excluding current employees ( unless all are retrenched then re-employed under covid safe clauses ) 

If there was no alternate to vaccination a strong case could be argued

But there are alternatives - periodic pcr tests,  daily check-in fast antigen tests , 1 minute on the treadmill 

The vaccines are released under emergency use meaning are experimental , so clearly fall under international law regarding strictly no forcing of experimental treatments

All that i am saying is that while inoculation is the most convenient , controllable and cost effective procedure , there should be an alternate process that meets workplace requirements

[the_great_she_elephant]

I may have “twisted “ what you intended to say, but I suspect most posters here would agree my interpretation of what you actually said was pretty accurate 

[the_great_she_elephant]

Your views now are no more thoughtful and balanced than some of the more septic regulars.

Septic; infected with bacteria producing pus.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/septic

This use of a contemptuous metaphor does not further your argument or constitute ‘rational debate’.

A Government that has decreed that if the vast majority of its individual citizens to not agree to a certain medical procedure they will lose their livelihoods and cival (sic) liberties,

This implies that the vast majority of Victorians oppose vaccination – an assumption and almost certainly untrue.

You read what you want to read.

I read your words – not your thoughts.

[domino-710]

I don't think anyone misunderstood a word of it - not one ticky tacky word.

[the_great_she_elephant]

😄🤣😆

[domino-710]

And so far all I have done today has been ' safe '.

Mind you - haven't been near the kitchen - yet. 😉

[4channel]

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Spoiler

@countessalmirena wrote:

Your early-stage oral drug treatment references lack credible evidence. Any medical intervention of that sort must go through double blind randomised placebo controlled clinical trials. This holds true even if the medication in question has been used safely and effectively for another purpose. That is because safety and efficacy data against a different disease require a new scene. It is not enough to rely on pre-clinical trial data (in vitro).

I refer you to the following reading:

Deng J, Zhou F, Ali S, et al. Efficacy and safety of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19: A systematic review and meta-analysis [published online ahead of print, 2021 Sep 27]. QJM. 2021;hcab247. doi:10.1093/qjmed/hcab247

Popp M, Stegemann M, Metzendorf MI, et al. Ivermectin for preventing and treating COVID-19. Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2021;7(7):CD015017. Published 2021 Jul 28. doi:10.1002/14651858.CD015017.pub2

Buffet G, Mendoza-Sassi R, Fysekidis M. Inaccurate Real-World Data Does Not Provide Real-World Answers. Am J Ther. 2021;28(5):e596-e598. Published 2021 Jun 29. doi:10.1097/MJT.0000000000001415

Roman YM, Burela PA, Pasupuleti V, Piscoya A, Vidal JE, Hernandez AV. Ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19: A systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials [published online ahead of print, 2021 Jun 28]. Clin Infect Dis. 2021;ciab591. doi:10.1093/cid/ciab591

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The safe use, efficacy of oral drugs such as Doxycycline, Hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin has been. confirmed. They are used to great success in various countries around the world. It was shown by a well-respected medical doctor and professor that a certain trial was sabotaged, manipulated to initiate a predicted favorable outcome to suit a pre-existing view.

Because oral drugs are in competition with a more profitable and long term profit-strategy of "vaccination", the tests being done and finalized to the stage where the strangle-hold of red tape is released would probably coincide with the enabling of cactus farming 🌵🌵🌵 on the moon.🌗 This is the 🗺 world we live in countessalmirena! It is almost at the stage where corporations, not governments run this planet.

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Trial Site News

Physicians Rise Up Against WHO “Wait and See” Protocol
TrialSite Staff October 6, 2021

https://trialsitenews.com/physicians-rise-up-against-who-wait-and-see-protocol/

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

The Desert Review

Dr. Fareed addresses Italian Senate at COVID summit

By George C. Fareed, M.D. Sep 16, 2021 Updated Sep 21, 2021

https://www.thedesertreview.com/news/local/dr-fareed-addresses-italian-senate-at-covid-summit/articl...

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Just a minor snippet of the hundreds and hundreds of highly credible accounts of what is being done and what needs to be done.

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Spoiler

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@countessalmirena

@countessalmirena@countessalmirena wrote:

Your oral vitamin-D supplement references have no definitive late-trial-stage data upon which to draw a solid conclusion. It is certainly true that depleted vitamin D levels have been observed in seriously ill COVID-19 patients, but this begs the question of whether COVID-19 causes such depletion, results in worse symptoms where such depletion exists, or whether there were other factors at play. After all, patients with underlying conditions tend to do much worse against COVID-19 than those without underlying conditions. Many of the observed underlying conditions are associated with lower levels of vitamin D. Hence, it is impossible to provide a causative relationship between COVID-19, morbid outcomes, underlying health conditions and low levels of vitamin D.

Vitamin D supplements are only of use where there is a deficiency of vitamin D. However, certainly in winter most of us in Australia receive less than the required amount. Your GP can advise whether you should be taking vitamin D supplements. This meta-analysis is worth reading:

Martineau AR, Jolliffe DA, Greenberg L, et al. Vitamin D supplementation to prevent acute respiratory infections: individual participant data meta-analysis. Southampton (UK): NIHR Journals Library; 2019 Jan. (Health Technology Assessment, No. 23.2.) Available from: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK536320/ doi: 10.3310/hta23020

There could be some verifiable interventions with vitamin D. However, bear in mind the UK Biobank results that showed no link:

Hastie CE, Mackay DF, Ho F, et al. Vitamin D concentrations and COVID-19 infection in UK Biobank [published correction appears in Diabetes Metab Syndr. 2020 Sep - Oct;14(5):1315-1316]. Diabetes Metab Syndr. 2020;14(4):561-565. doi:10.1016/j.dsx.2020.04.050

It's early days yet with such studies, and there may yet be some promising lines of research.

As for your suggestion of aspirin, you refer to a clinical trial which has as yet not posted any results. Thus far, you may want to look at this trial:

RECOVERY Collaborative Group. Colchicine in patients admitted to hospital with COVID-19 (RECOVERY): a randomised, controlled, open-label, platform trial. Lancet Respir Med. 2021; (published online Oct 18.)
https://doi.org/10.1016/S2213-2600(21)00435-5

Your reference to the Vitamin C study (you linked only to the abstract, not to the whole article) gives food for thought. ❝Although 0.1 g/day of vitamin C can maintain ordinary plasma levels in healthy persons, critically ill patients need much higher doses (2–3 g/day) to increase the plasma vitamin C levels to the ordinary range. It would therefore seem reasonable to screen plasma vitamin C levels in ICU patients and administer vitamin C to those with low levels. Unfortunately, vitamin C assay with HPLC is quite expensive and therefore not usually available in daily practice, and the cheaper tests are less accurate.❞

The authors make the point that ❝Although there is as yet no direct evidence indicating that vitamin C is beneficial specifically against COVID-19, the reported benefits of vitamin C in the ICU context suggest that it could be considered for patients. Based on the dose vs. plasma level analyses, it is unlikely that a healthy person would benefit from daily vitamin C doses over 0.5 g/day. However, for patients suffering from a respiratory virus infection, 6–8 g/day of oral vitamin C was significantly more effective than 3–4 g/day.❞

The paper also points out that large clinical trial information will be needed going forward, but that in the meantime clinical application of vitamin C may prove beneficial in COVID-19 patients with depleted levels.

Hemilä H, de Man AME. Vitamin C and COVID-19. Front Med (2021)
7:559811. doi: 10.3389/fmed.2020.559811.

Your reference to the pre-print on the in-vitro action of the common dandelion upon the mutation (re spike protein of SARS-CoV-2) is far too early to do more than be considered one of many promising leads at the pre-clinical trial level. It has yet to be peer-approved, and after that, there is the long journey of further development and testing. It hasn't progressed to animal trials yet, let alone human trials. It may take a year if it receives massive funding, it may take longer.

Tran H, Le N, Gigl M, Dawid C, Lamy E. Common dandelion (Taraxacum officinale) efficiently blocks the interaction between ACE2 cell surface receptor and SARS-CoV-2 spike protein D614, mutants D614G, N501Y, K417N and E484K in vitro. bioRxiv 2021.03.19.435959; doi:10.1101/2021.03.19.435959

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Vitamin D is more a preventative and is effective more in the early stages of illness due to this corona virus. That's where its main impact is.

Aspirin is a blood thinner and that's where its use comes in handy with treating those in the minority who are unfortunate to succumb to the effects of this corona virus.

Vitamin C one of the great wonders of God's creation is such an amazing thing. On its own with a change in lifestyle, appropriate rest, exercise etc., it has by account been noted as a weapon against cancer. And with some cancers, it has helped the body to defeat cancer.  Because of it's use and its potency in assisting healing, it cannot be denied. It is now used to help people in intensive care, even injured people! But because of it's potency, effectiveness and even some may say, magical properties, there is a definite agenda to discredit, minimize it's use and efficacy in treating the corona virus.

Dandelion has been noted to protect unvaccinated people from the shedding by recently vaccinated. It can be taken orally in various forms.  Both the leaves and root can be used. The leave though is where the magical properties are!

I recall being out and about, and an acquaintance sat beside me to chat. He was recently jabbed. I felt a bit unwell later  and had a bit of a headache. I had some dandelion root tea and took extra strong doses of that. In a very short period of time I felt better. Actually, I felt fantastic!

Sadly with dandelion, like vitamin C, it can't be patented so it has to ignored as it is a threat to profit.

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Spoiler

@countessalmirena wrote:

Your dismissal of the work by Stein, Corcoran, Colyer, et al is unwarranted. Within its scope the study is measured and aware of its limitations. The methodology used is not unusual in sociology. It at the very least provides information that can springboard to further studies. If the reason for this disdain towards it as "imaginary" and "astral" is based upon a reluctance to admit that there were roughly the same proportion of deaths due to COVID-19 within the Amish community as there was outside it, that reflects only a personal view, not a sound methodological criticism.

Stein, R.E., Corcoran, K.E., Colyer, C.J. et al. Closed but Not Protected: Excess Deaths Among the Amish and Mennonites During the COVID-19 Pandemic. J Relig Health 60, 3230–3244 (2021). https://doi.org/10.1007/s10943-021-01307-5

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The reason for my calling this presentation of Stein's hypothesis as "imaginary" and "astral" is because that is the only way that someone would come up with such a thing. The only other possibility is that it is made up but using an actual tally that has no relation to the subject of corona virus deaths. In short it appears to be a bogus presentation of facts and a working back to substantiate what what the presentation was. Actually, what jumps out at me is the similarity between this and what the Bush Admin was doing at the time to validate their claims that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. They started with the accusation that he had them and then worked backwards in a fashion to back up the statement they made. Quote Colin Powell and his  "yellowcake 🥞☢️ uranium" and Bush with his "High strength aluminum tubes 🍃 etc.".  I'm not saying that Ms. Stein has been paid to create a finding. What I am saying though is that she has created her own finding.

Even if a graph had been shown for a whole year with monthly findings relating to deaths in the Amish, Mennonite communities, what would it prove?? Without actual doctor's reports, diagnosis, swabs done while patient is alive and even postmortem etc., it's value is low!

[the_great_she_elephant]

The reason for my calling this presentation of Stein's hypothesis as "imaginary" and "astral" is because that is the only way that someone would come up with such a thing.

I am puzzled by your use of the word "astral". Are you suggesting that the authors of that study are astrologers?

[4channel]

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@chameleon54 wrote:Definition of fascism

1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Dan Andrews -

A Government that has decreed that if the vast majority of its individual citizens to not agree to a certain medical procedure they will lose their livelihoods and cival liberties, even though fully vaccinated workers will be catching and spreading the virus within work places.

A Government that has implemented highly restrictive policies such as night time curfews on its citizens WITHOUT CONSULTATION or concensus of its health advisers.

A government that has locked its citizens up for a longer period of time than any of the other 10,000 cities in the world when prudent, timely COVID management would have prevented any need for this. Every other state seems to have managed similar outbreaks without the need for locking up its citizens for vastly extended periods of time.

A Government that allowed thousands of BLM supporters ( his team ) to gather together unrestricted to protest in the city at a particularly sensitive time in COVID outbreak management, but used over 1000 police armed with capsican spray and rubber bullets to suppress  protests against his failed management of COVID

If this is not clear indications of a dictatorial, fascist regime I dont know what is. 

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Intriguing, mind boggling and frightening that such a thing has manifested itself in this day and age. I know that many Christians are saying that this is a sign of end times. And it very well could be.

Interesting with Black Lives Matter. I couldn't ague that the motivations for people to protest are not noble.  a perfectly understandable reaction. Racism is one of the evils that becomes a tool for certain agendas. Sadly ( I believe that ) the movement is controlled by nefarious people and it is corrupt. It takes people in different directions.  Not surprising he had no real problem with it.  *wink*  And I personally believe Andrews has no compassion for people of colour who have a tragic end due to brutality by law enforcement.  Well, he has no compassion for anyone be they Caucasians, Africans, Indigenous, Asians, Polynesians, Mediterranean etc. etc.  etc.. . This has been proven by his actions and emotional detachment! And the brutality you described  that was dished out to people protesting against lock-downs, economy destruction, forced vaccination is one of the examples. 🚨 🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨 🚨

To be honest mate, I just have to pinch myself to see if I'm awake and not in a dream. It just goes beyond comprehension that such a person has found a way to get into politics.

[countessalmirena]

4channel, you certainly gave me a ripple of laughter with your "cactus-farming on the moon" phrase. What a wonderful image!

I've already said several times that the drugs you mention have not been shown to be either safe or efficacious in clinical trials as treatments for COVID-19. Their safety and effectiveness against the conditions for which they are on-script and have been tested is of course not in question. WE DISAGREE ON THIS.

I consider it extremely unlikely that any clinical trials in the fight against COVID-19 were sabotaged, and if the only "evidence" for this is the Dr Peter McCullough coterie, I would downgrade the faint violet alert to barely noticeable delicate ivory alert. WE DISAGREE ON THIS (but this is really related to the above paragraph, so it may not count as an additional point).

You've given two links - but if I read the trialsitenews article, I would do so already concerned about its trustworthiness. (You have to be fair and acknowledge that I've read quite a few of the links you have posted, in order to assess them logically.) That particular site is already known to me through at least two misleading articles. Are you sure you want me to read that article and examine it logically and critically? Re the Desert Review website, it's locally owned, reflecting the views of those Californians who have some misinformation about COVID-19. It's quite sobering to think that California alone has had more than 4,606,000 cases of COVID-19, and 70,884 deaths due to COVID-19. Population is what...? 39.5 million, roughly? The percentage of the population fully vaccinated is 61.9%, and they started their vaccination drive well before we did in Australia... and we're streaking ahead with vaccination coverage.

Re your comment about corporations, not governments, running the planet, that has some validity. It's at least the case that it is partly true, evidenced particularly with the release of the Paradise papers among others. WE AGREE ON THIS, AT LEAST IN PART.

Re vitamin D, we don't yet have reliable information about its efficacy in trials, let alone effectiveness upon patients, early-stage or otherwise. Let's see what the currently running trials show. WE WILL HAVE TO HOLD FIRE ON AGREEMENT/DISAGREEMENT ON THIS, subject to clinical data in the coming months/years.

Re aspirin, still waiting for clinical data to be reported. HOLDING FIRE ON THIS.

Re vitamin C, you're overreaching. Vitamin C has excellent properties, but don't go all druid and "magic cure" on me. I am in favour of administering vitamin C to critically ill COVID-19 patients with depleted levels. I also look forward to ongoing data on its effectiveness for COVID-19 patients. RELUCTANTLY WE DISAGREE ON THIS, but only in degree (I hope).

❝Dandelion has been noted to protect unvaccinated people from the shedding by recently vaccinated.❞ - Now you've lost me. That is completely illogical. Do you somehow imagine that there is a qualitative difference in viral shedding by vaccinated persons who contract breakthrough COVID-19? No, it's even worse than that. You believe that there is viral shedding as a RESULT of the vaccination. No, no, no; none of the COVID-19 vaccines currently in use contain live virus, which would be required for viral shedding. Therefore the very basis of your assertion is false. WE DISAGREE ON THIS.

❝I felt a bit unwell later and had a bit of a headache. I had some dandelion root tea and took extra strong doses of that. In a very short period of time I felt better. Actually, I felt fantastic!❞ - I am glad that you felt better after feeling unwell. Headaches can be very debilitating. There's nothing wrong with having dandelion root tea. However, you have tried the old trick of correlation and causation, without so much as a smidgeon of understanding of how hypotheses are tested. People do feel unwell sometimes. People do get headaches. Headaches and a general feeling of malaise have been around for centuries, nay, aeons, since ancient Sumer, since the earliest human civilisations. We cannot draw a bow at a venture and make such unsupported and scientifically impossible statements. THERE IS NO SHEDDING OF THE SARS-CoV-2 virus after vaccination!

Re the paper by Stein, Corcoran, Colyer et al, it used the same methodology that is often used in sociological or anthropological research papers. It's not intended to be definitive and of course does not present itself as such. You're quite right about medical data being required for a definitive medically-based study - and such data would be extremely difficult (if not impossible) to obtain, given the lifestyle of the Amish people (reclusive to outsiders, very gathering-oriented to insiders, minimal use of technology). As a general statement, I would not expect to see any difference in transmissibility of COVID-19 (Delta variant) among the Amish peoples if it entered their community.

You've gone into WMD territory again, and I'm not following you into that realm.

But there we are... not completely disagreeing, which is not a bad place on which to end!

[springyzone]

 the old trick of correlation and causation

Can't help it, that line reminded me of something I saw, a bit light hearted.

Off topic a bit I guess but a smile never goes astray.